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get in the truck

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you put this on the accelerator and

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when i yell go

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that's from the movie the signal where

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nick and haley

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along with another mit student whose

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name i can't remember are on a

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cross-country trip to kind of

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work on some issues with haley and

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nick's relationship but what they don't

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realize is the hacking they did at mit

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is following them because actually it

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was part

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of an alien abduction

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government-sponsored program

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really alternative reality simulation

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kind of thing have i lost you

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i hope not because as wacky as that

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might sound

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in the sci-fi movie reality we seem to

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be

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non-reality reality we're actually in

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and at the end of the day that's really

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what this amazing book by today's guest

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ralph blumenthal who's authored i think

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the

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ultimate biography on john mack

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well i think that's what it's all about

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here's a clip from the interview what

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john mack

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has done along with a bunch of other

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people has

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shifted the burden of proof these

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experiences that people are having

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are not in the way that we'd normally

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talk about them real because

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my read of it is they are real we just

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don't

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know what real is anymore what are your

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thoughts absolutely

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you could not i could not have said it

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better now john often said

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if anyone has a better explanation i'm

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willing to hear it

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so it's not mental illness it's not a

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mass delusion because these people don't

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get together

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it's not publicity seeking because they

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shy away from publicity

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they don't want to be known they're

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questioning they wish it wasn't true

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it's not books they read or movies

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they've seen because kids two years old

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tell these same stories

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so he's eliminated all these other

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things that it's not so then he says

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okay

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so as far as i know nothing has happened

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to these people other than what they

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said

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welcome to skeptica where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics

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i'm your host alex sacaris and today we

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welcome ralph blumenthal to skeptico

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ralph is the author of the believer

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alien counters

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hard science and the passion of john

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mack

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it's uh i really love the title by the

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way ralph i it

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captures so much to anyone who's read

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the book

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you know there's some kind of you've

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done a lot with just a few words there

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even with the end the

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the passion of john mack i thought was

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great so uh

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thank you thank you a lot of work went

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into that title

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you know titles are important i i know

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they are and you just gotta admire

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someone who's done it and

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i also just admire this book so much but

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let me tell

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folks for a minute you know ralph is the

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author of

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uh many books several books but he's

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also

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a very well respected journalist having

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written

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many years for the new york times he is

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the real deal and he's done some of

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his best work with this amazing

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biography

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of john mack who if you don't know who

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john mack is we're going to talk a

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little bit about it

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but a lot of this interview we're going

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to kind of assume that you know who john

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mack

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is but you know before we get started

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one thing i want to say is

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i thought the book was terrific and it

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had just so much

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information about this important part of

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history that

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you know go buy this book i bought the

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book even though the publisher sent it

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to me

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buy this book support this guy i can't

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imagine we're going to ask him

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how much time and effort he spent in

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researching

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all the interviews he put together to do

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this and then if you

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feel so inclined and i did write a

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review

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mine hasn't come through yet but write a

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review of the book so

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ralph it's great to have you here and

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again congratulations on an important

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important book because it's such an

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important part of history

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thank you alex it's a real pleasure to

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be here with you

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so enough with the accolades who is john

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mack

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accoladed

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in his lifetime as well as vilified uh

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he was a harvard psychiatrist

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uh very eminent in his field uh who

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through a series of

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circumstances that i outlined in the

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book um got interested in the phenomenon

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of alien abduction

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people ordinary people from all walks of

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life including young children

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who remembered or

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had images of or thought that

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they remembered uh being abducted by

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alien beings taken to some kind of craft

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for

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uh strange bizarre pseudo-medical

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experiments

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including reproductive procedures put

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this in a time perspective and in a

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cultural perspective

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what year is this what else is happening

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around him okay

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um john mack uh stumbled across this

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phenomenon in 1990

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so you know basically the modern era uh

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he had been a psychiatrist

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since the 50s so he'd already you know

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been eminent in his field for 40 years

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he had written other books before ever

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coming across ellen abduction

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he was an expert in nightmares so no one

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could ever say he you know he didn't

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know what a nightmare was

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he was an expert in childhood

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development he had written about

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um a girl who committed suicide a

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teenager

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he'd written about a holocaust survivor

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so he had a wide ranging

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interest again before he ever came

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across alien abduction

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um so you know he was very eminence

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field which is what you know what what

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provided i guess the shock value to me

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when i uh

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happened upon a story for the book that

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he was the least

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likely guy to be investigating alien

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abduction

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and then you know uh the other thing

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that's always included with john mack

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right there in the second sentence is he

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he's a pulitzer prize winner which

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is is really interesting and i love the

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way you kind of

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uh explain that in the story because it

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kind of

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speaks to this passion and then almost

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evangelical kind of part of him

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he won the pulitzer for a

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psychobiography

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really of lawrence of arabia t.e

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lawrence i mean as i say in the book

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he went to the movies like everyone else

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in 1963 to see this long long movie

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uh which won all kinds of every prize

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you can imagine best picture i believe

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um but unlike us when he came out he

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didn't just say wow you know what a

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great movie

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he decided he was going to investigate

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uh t.e lawrence and spent the next

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12 years in oxford and england and

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and in the middle east um really delving

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into his life

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and then this leads to some other

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amazing chapters in this amazing life

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he becomes this kind of peace emissary

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uh he's jewish he kind of has it's kind

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of interesting too about his background

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he kind of comes from this very kind of

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trust fund rich kid east coast

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uh jewish kind of society

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and then next thing you know he does

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this he make

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all these fantastic accomplishments and

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then he's becomes kind of this

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peace emissary between israel and egypt

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and he kind of has that

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he kind of knows the arab thing a little

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bit from writing this book i mean it's

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it's a again an amazing chapter in his

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life as well yeah i mean i i outlined

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all the steps it was a series of

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progressions really that took him

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uh ultimately into uh alien abduction

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and finally into life after death

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but um the result of the lawrence

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biography which as you say won the

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pulitzer prize in 1977

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um he was suddenly considered an expert

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on the middle east you know that's how

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things work you write one book

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and suddenly you're an expert so there

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he was called to the middle east to

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mediate the arab-israeli conflict he had

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an introduction through a colleague

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at harvard to yasser arafat and he met

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with the assad arafat gave him a copy of

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his book on on

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t.e lawrence called the prince of odd

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disorder

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and uh so he was an expert on the middle

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east and that you know led to other

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things he uh

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traveled widely around the world he was

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you know

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booked for lectures uh he also became an

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ardent opponent of nuclear weapons and

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he demonstrated against

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the nuclear weapons stockpile he went to

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arizona got arrested with his whole

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family

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his wife and three sons uh for um you

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know for protesting

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so um so i i think it's very important

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in the

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outline all the steps he took

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before he became interested in alien

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abduction first of all

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it it outlines his bona fides that he

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was a serious guy

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and he'd achieved a lot and he knew you

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know the human mind

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insofar as it's ever able to know the

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human mind

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so again he he couldn't be accused later

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of not knowing what he was talking about

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that these people

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have psychological aberrations are they

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crazy

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and i think it was very important to

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establish that i agree

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and to establish that just as you just

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said i mean he's accomplished

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i mean so he gets thrown in the middle

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east thing but

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he immediately excels at it you know

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he's well respected by the people he

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meets and

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you know he's harvard i mean he's well

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respected at harvard he's well respected

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within the

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psychological community in the

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psychiatry community in general

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very accomplished guy and then as you

286
00:09:56,550 --> 00:09:54,480
describe

287
00:09:58,470 --> 00:09:56,560
i mean i mean i think it's hard for

288
00:10:02,150 --> 00:09:58,480
people even to wrap their head

289
00:10:04,470 --> 00:10:02,160
around this topic today we know it is

290
00:10:05,430 --> 00:10:04,480
but he just goes headlong into it this

291
00:10:07,509 --> 00:10:05,440
kind of

292
00:10:08,710 --> 00:10:07,519
passion of john mack he goes hey you

293
00:10:10,550 --> 00:10:08,720
know there's uh

294
00:10:12,069 --> 00:10:10,560
this seems to be happening and i want

295
00:10:15,670 --> 00:10:12,079
you to explain for a minute

296
00:10:17,750 --> 00:10:15,680
why he comes to believe that this might

297
00:10:20,150 --> 00:10:17,760
be happening because he is a little bit

298
00:10:21,110 --> 00:10:20,160
not a little bit he is skeptical at the

299
00:10:22,949 --> 00:10:21,120
beginning right

300
00:10:24,550 --> 00:10:22,959
should also say alex that he was

301
00:10:27,590 --> 00:10:24,560
immensely charismatic

302
00:10:29,990 --> 00:10:27,600
tall really good looking cobalt blue

303
00:10:31,829 --> 00:10:30,000
eyes magnetic to men and women which

304
00:10:33,590 --> 00:10:31,839
got him into a little bit of trouble i

305
00:10:35,030 --> 00:10:33,600
mean he is hollywood all the way

306
00:10:36,630 --> 00:10:35,040
there's photos in the book i mean he

307
00:10:38,069 --> 00:10:36,640
looks like an actor he's stunning he

308
00:10:39,190 --> 00:10:38,079
jumps off the page you're like is this

309
00:10:40,790 --> 00:10:39,200
guy a movie star

310
00:10:42,230 --> 00:10:40,800
and he and he knew it too i mean that's

311
00:10:42,949 --> 00:10:42,240
what gave him sort of the confidence he

312
00:10:44,389 --> 00:10:42,959
was uh

313
00:10:46,310 --> 00:10:44,399
bud hopkins thought he had too much

314
00:10:47,829 --> 00:10:46,320
confidence that he was

315
00:10:49,590 --> 00:10:47,839
really that was almost a shortcoming

316
00:10:52,470 --> 00:10:49,600
that he didn't think he could fail

317
00:10:53,910 --> 00:10:52,480
um but as you said sure when he first

318
00:10:56,069 --> 00:10:53,920
heard about the phenomenon

319
00:10:57,350 --> 00:10:56,079
from bud hopkins and i tell the story in

320
00:11:00,150 --> 00:10:57,360
detail in my book

321
00:11:01,350 --> 00:11:00,160
um he was very skeptical he didn't even

322
00:11:02,790 --> 00:11:01,360
want to meet with bud hopkins

323
00:11:04,790 --> 00:11:02,800
after he heard that bud hopkins was

324
00:11:06,230 --> 00:11:04,800
investigating alien abduction he thought

325
00:11:08,790 --> 00:11:06,240
it was completely crazy

326
00:11:10,470 --> 00:11:08,800
um so he was skeptical in the beginning

327
00:11:11,670 --> 00:11:10,480
and everything in his upbringing as he

328
00:11:14,870 --> 00:11:11,680
said he was

329
00:11:16,069 --> 00:11:14,880
born in a a mature scientific

330
00:11:19,110 --> 00:11:16,079
materialistic

331
00:11:20,509 --> 00:11:19,120
german jewish household a very uh

332
00:11:23,910 --> 00:11:20,519
secular

333
00:11:27,110 --> 00:11:23,920
non-observant really uh and very

334
00:11:28,470 --> 00:11:27,120
open to the world and science etc and

335
00:11:30,550 --> 00:11:28,480
non-superstitious

336
00:11:32,310 --> 00:11:30,560
so he really was a very unlikely person

337
00:11:34,470 --> 00:11:32,320
to be captivated

338
00:11:36,069 --> 00:11:34,480
by this as i say he was captured but not

339
00:11:41,110 --> 00:11:36,079
by aliens he was captured

340
00:11:42,710 --> 00:11:41,120
by the phenomenon but what happened is

341
00:11:45,670 --> 00:11:42,720
he's introduced to this phenomenon by

342
00:11:48,069 --> 00:11:45,680
bud hawkins and he collects a group of

343
00:11:49,990 --> 00:11:48,079
so-called experiencers abductees

344
00:11:51,350 --> 00:11:50,000
uh around pause for one second i don't

345
00:11:54,550 --> 00:11:51,360
wanna do this too much but

346
00:11:57,030 --> 00:11:54,560
bud hopkins uh remind people

347
00:11:58,069 --> 00:11:57,040
who he is people might people might know

348
00:11:59,990 --> 00:11:58,079
but then

349
00:12:01,590 --> 00:12:00,000
remind him who he is in terms of the ufo

350
00:12:02,230 --> 00:12:01,600
community but then also he's a

351
00:12:04,710 --> 00:12:02,240
well-known

352
00:12:06,870 --> 00:12:04,720
artist in new york he he is kind of a

353
00:12:11,190 --> 00:12:06,880
guy with a certain

354
00:12:13,110 --> 00:12:11,200
you know a social weight as well right

355
00:12:14,310 --> 00:12:13,120
right well one i mean in the course of

356
00:12:16,230 --> 00:12:14,320
this book i deal with a lot of

357
00:12:17,670 --> 00:12:16,240
interesting characters and bud hopkins

358
00:12:20,069 --> 00:12:17,680
was certainly one of them

359
00:12:20,790 --> 00:12:20,079
um he was an artist on cape cod and new

360
00:12:22,550 --> 00:12:20,800
york

361
00:12:23,990 --> 00:12:22,560
uh he was a non-objective artist he'd

362
00:12:28,069 --> 00:12:24,000
been written up in the new york times

363
00:12:30,310 --> 00:12:28,079
he had really some artistic credentials

364
00:12:32,629 --> 00:12:30,320
and on the way to a party one day on

365
00:12:33,829 --> 00:12:32,639
cape cod in 1964

366
00:12:36,150 --> 00:12:33,839
he and the other people in the car

367
00:12:37,829 --> 00:12:36,160
spotted a ufo over the ocean

368
00:12:39,110 --> 00:12:37,839
and they thought that was cool and they

369
00:12:40,069 --> 00:12:39,120
followed it for a while and they got to

370
00:12:42,790 --> 00:12:40,079
the party

371
00:12:45,110 --> 00:12:42,800
and they told people hey we saw ufo and

372
00:12:45,990 --> 00:12:45,120
they all said oh we've seen ufos oh sure

373
00:12:47,829 --> 00:12:46,000
we saw you know

374
00:12:49,030 --> 00:12:47,839
so he said wow you know what is this

375
00:12:51,350 --> 00:12:49,040
phenomenon

376
00:12:53,190 --> 00:12:51,360
so he starts to study it bud hopkins and

377
00:12:54,949 --> 00:12:53,200
he teaches himself hypnosis

378
00:12:56,310 --> 00:12:54,959
he said i'm an artist and nobody cares

379
00:12:58,470 --> 00:12:56,320
what an artist does

380
00:12:59,750 --> 00:12:58,480
he he couldn't suffer any loss of

381
00:13:02,949 --> 00:12:59,760
reputation

382
00:13:05,190 --> 00:13:02,959
bud hopkins researched these people

383
00:13:06,310 --> 00:13:05,200
and wrote a book long before john mack

384
00:13:08,389 --> 00:13:06,320
ever got involved

385
00:13:10,069 --> 00:13:08,399
called missing time where he identified

386
00:13:13,750 --> 00:13:10,079
the phenomenon of people

387
00:13:16,550 --> 00:13:13,760
who remember spying a ufo and then

388
00:13:18,550 --> 00:13:16,560
sort of losing track and then later in

389
00:13:19,269 --> 00:13:18,560
hypnotic regression or even in conscious

390
00:13:24,389 --> 00:13:19,279
memories

391
00:13:26,470 --> 00:13:24,399
aboard a craft and subject to

392
00:13:28,389 --> 00:13:26,480
pseudomedical experiments and and

393
00:13:31,430 --> 00:13:28,399
meeting you know a short

394
00:13:32,230 --> 00:13:31,440
gray being so-called the grays and all

395
00:13:35,430 --> 00:13:32,240
that

396
00:13:36,230 --> 00:13:35,440
so so bud hopkins was already well into

397
00:13:39,269 --> 00:13:36,240
this

398
00:13:42,230 --> 00:13:39,279
uh when a when john mack meets him

399
00:13:43,750 --> 00:13:42,240
and as i said john was very skeptical in

400
00:13:45,350 --> 00:13:43,760
the beginning but then he gathered his

401
00:13:49,189 --> 00:13:45,360
own group around him

402
00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:49,199
um and was absolutely enthralled and and

403
00:13:53,430 --> 00:13:52,800
uh bewildered uh and captivated by their

404
00:13:55,269 --> 00:13:53,440
stories

405
00:13:57,670 --> 00:13:55,279
he could not believe this is happening

406
00:13:59,189 --> 00:13:57,680
in any kind of recognizable reality

407
00:14:01,030 --> 00:13:59,199
let me interject something here ralph

408
00:14:02,629 --> 00:14:01,040
because as this story is told

409
00:14:03,829 --> 00:14:02,639
and is repeated over and over again

410
00:14:05,430 --> 00:14:03,839
there's kind of a couple of different

411
00:14:09,350 --> 00:14:05,440
ways to interpret it

412
00:14:12,310 --> 00:14:09,360
i think anyone who encountered such a

413
00:14:13,590 --> 00:14:12,320
kind of incredible paradigm shifting

414
00:14:15,990 --> 00:14:13,600
experience

415
00:14:17,750 --> 00:14:16,000
would be evangelical so i think

416
00:14:20,150 --> 00:14:17,760
sometimes when we talk about bud hopkins

417
00:14:20,870 --> 00:14:20,160
and we go wow bud hopkins just jumped on

418
00:14:25,350 --> 00:14:20,880
this thing

419
00:14:26,710 --> 00:14:25,360
was living in one reality the reality

420
00:14:28,629 --> 00:14:26,720
that we all live in

421
00:14:30,790 --> 00:14:28,639
and then suddenly that reality is turned

422
00:14:32,550 --> 00:14:30,800
upside down and then suddenly he starts

423
00:14:34,470 --> 00:14:32,560
talking to these people who are all

424
00:14:36,710 --> 00:14:34,480
confirming it over and over again

425
00:14:37,750 --> 00:14:36,720
and then when we talk about the

426
00:14:40,310 --> 00:14:37,760
evangelism

427
00:14:42,230 --> 00:14:40,320
of john mack as you said a guy who's

428
00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:42,240
supremely accomplished

429
00:14:46,949 --> 00:14:45,360
supremely confident and he is basically

430
00:14:49,269 --> 00:14:46,959
confirming

431
00:14:51,110 --> 00:14:49,279
top to bottom everything that bud

432
00:14:52,230 --> 00:14:51,120
hopkins is finding and you want to say

433
00:14:54,710 --> 00:14:52,240
bud hopkins is

434
00:14:55,910 --> 00:14:54,720
self-taught in hypnosis john max sure

435
00:14:58,150 --> 00:14:55,920
ain't self-taught

436
00:14:59,750 --> 00:14:58,160
and he's getting the same thing and he's

437
00:15:00,310 --> 00:14:59,760
not even putting these people a lot of

438
00:15:02,949 --> 00:15:00,320
times

439
00:15:04,790 --> 00:15:02,959
under deep hypnosis he's just saying

440
00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:04,800
relax a little bit and start telling me

441
00:15:07,590 --> 00:15:05,760
what you believe so

442
00:15:09,110 --> 00:15:07,600
i you're not shading that one way or

443
00:15:10,629 --> 00:15:09,120
another i just want to make

444
00:15:12,150 --> 00:15:10,639
there's a difference between you know

445
00:15:14,069 --> 00:15:12,160
just kind of reporting this

446
00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:14,079
matter of factly but also kind of

447
00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:15,360
putting a spin on it

448
00:15:19,750 --> 00:15:17,760
you know that there's a reason that

449
00:15:21,670 --> 00:15:19,760
these guys were so excited

450
00:15:23,350 --> 00:15:21,680
everybody who everybody who has come

451
00:15:26,069 --> 00:15:23,360
across this phenomenon

452
00:15:27,269 --> 00:15:26,079
is completely blown away by it their

453
00:15:30,550 --> 00:15:27,279
minds are blown

454
00:15:32,710 --> 00:15:30,560
almost literally so uh but hopkins was

455
00:15:34,310 --> 00:15:32,720
and john mack was so yes they become

456
00:15:36,150 --> 00:15:34,320
evangelistic because they want to tell

457
00:15:37,430 --> 00:15:36,160
the world that they discovered this

458
00:15:39,829 --> 00:15:37,440
phenomenon you know

459
00:15:41,430 --> 00:15:39,839
and not many other people were out there

460
00:15:43,110 --> 00:15:41,440
you know telling these stories bud was

461
00:15:43,829 --> 00:15:43,120
one of the few david jacobs who came

462
00:15:46,790 --> 00:15:43,839
along

463
00:15:48,949 --> 00:15:46,800
around the same time a professor at uh

464
00:15:50,230 --> 00:15:48,959
temple university who studied ufos and

465
00:15:52,230 --> 00:15:50,240
then became an

466
00:15:53,509 --> 00:15:52,240
ardent advocate of you know the whole

467
00:15:54,949 --> 00:15:53,519
abduction phenomenon

468
00:15:56,949 --> 00:15:54,959
but other than that there weren't many

469
00:15:59,749 --> 00:15:56,959
people spreading the word and

470
00:16:01,509 --> 00:15:59,759
evangelistic is exactly right john mack

471
00:16:01,829 --> 00:16:01,519
i couldn't wait to tell people about

472
00:16:03,749 --> 00:16:01,839
this

473
00:16:04,949 --> 00:16:03,759
including a harvard audience before he

474
00:16:07,030 --> 00:16:04,959
was really ready to

475
00:16:08,069 --> 00:16:07,040
i mean he had almost only heard about it

476
00:16:09,749 --> 00:16:08,079
before he was

477
00:16:11,749 --> 00:16:09,759
you know lecturing on it too and that's

478
00:16:13,030 --> 00:16:11,759
one of his shortcomings as i point out

479
00:16:15,829 --> 00:16:13,040
in the book he was

480
00:16:16,350 --> 00:16:15,839
he was a passion but passionate for sure

481
00:16:20,230 --> 00:16:16,360
uh

482
00:16:23,590 --> 00:16:20,240
over-enthusiastic perhaps but um

483
00:16:25,670 --> 00:16:23,600
um so he so what convinced him uh well

484
00:16:27,110 --> 00:16:25,680
first of all he he noticed very quickly

485
00:16:28,150 --> 00:16:27,120
that the people he was talking to were

486
00:16:30,069 --> 00:16:28,160
not insane

487
00:16:31,990 --> 00:16:30,079
i mean he was a psychiatrist and as he

488
00:16:34,310 --> 00:16:32,000
often said that's what i do

489
00:16:36,949 --> 00:16:34,320
you know that you know if you're not uh

490
00:16:39,030 --> 00:16:36,959
you know evaluator arts conservator you

491
00:16:40,550 --> 00:16:39,040
know when a rembrandt is a rembrandt

492
00:16:41,910 --> 00:16:40,560
and he said i'm a psychiatrist these

493
00:16:42,790 --> 00:16:41,920
people come to me i know they're not

494
00:16:44,790 --> 00:16:42,800
crazy

495
00:16:46,230 --> 00:16:44,800
um he he also said that they were not

496
00:16:49,030 --> 00:16:46,240
deluded they were not

497
00:16:50,150 --> 00:16:49,040
you know reading off some uh playbook or

498
00:16:51,749 --> 00:16:50,160
so the stories were

499
00:16:53,269 --> 00:16:51,759
basically consistent but different

500
00:16:56,949 --> 00:16:53,279
enough so that they're

501
00:17:00,069 --> 00:16:56,959
not um you know told by rote um

502
00:17:03,829 --> 00:17:00,079
these people came from a wide variety of

503
00:17:07,029 --> 00:17:03,839
backgrounds uh they were young and old

504
00:17:10,150 --> 00:17:07,039
both genders uh different ages and

505
00:17:11,829 --> 00:17:10,160
um and children as young as two

506
00:17:14,069 --> 00:17:11,839
who said you know little man take me

507
00:17:15,990 --> 00:17:14,079
into the sky i fly in the sky

508
00:17:17,189 --> 00:17:16,000
and these kids were not reading books on

509
00:17:18,630 --> 00:17:17,199
ufos

510
00:17:20,789 --> 00:17:18,640
you know they were not you know playing

511
00:17:24,230 --> 00:17:20,799
back movies that they had seen

512
00:17:27,909 --> 00:17:24,240
so this all convinced john also he found

513
00:17:29,430 --> 00:17:27,919
that um there was a very often a place

514
00:17:31,590 --> 00:17:29,440
outside the house where they remembered

515
00:17:33,590 --> 00:17:31,600
a ufo coming down where the grass was

516
00:17:35,909 --> 00:17:33,600
sort of tamped down our branches were

517
00:17:37,190 --> 00:17:35,919
broken and sometimes they had marks on

518
00:17:38,390 --> 00:17:37,200
their bodies afterwards that they

519
00:17:40,630 --> 00:17:38,400
couldn't explain

520
00:17:42,230 --> 00:17:40,640
and in one case was a quadriplegic who

521
00:17:44,230 --> 00:17:42,240
could not have inflicted the marks on

522
00:17:45,590 --> 00:17:44,240
themselves totally paralyzed

523
00:17:47,750 --> 00:17:45,600
so all these things were sort of

524
00:17:50,789 --> 00:17:47,760
fragmentary evidence

525
00:17:52,549 --> 00:17:50,799
and yet um they convinced john that he

526
00:17:54,870 --> 00:17:52,559
was on to something that was happening

527
00:17:58,150 --> 00:17:54,880
in some kind of reality it wasn't just

528
00:18:01,190 --> 00:17:58,160
all make-believe and it wasn't uh

529
00:18:02,789 --> 00:18:01,200
uh easily uh provable it was somewhere

530
00:18:05,830 --> 00:18:02,799
in between it was in some

531
00:18:07,909 --> 00:18:05,840
you know liminal world um but

532
00:18:10,150 --> 00:18:07,919
it was true enough so that he thought

533
00:18:13,909 --> 00:18:10,160
that people were telling the truth

534
00:18:15,590 --> 00:18:13,919
so let's talk some more about two things

535
00:18:18,549 --> 00:18:15,600
about harvard

536
00:18:20,070 --> 00:18:18,559
and about naivete you know because

537
00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:20,080
before we even rolled tape

538
00:18:24,470 --> 00:18:22,480
i one of the things i i really

539
00:18:25,830 --> 00:18:24,480
appreciated about the book although it

540
00:18:29,110 --> 00:18:25,840
kind of was a little bit

541
00:18:31,669 --> 00:18:29,120
hard to get over is it's

542
00:18:34,310 --> 00:18:31,679
a warts and all kind of honest telling

543
00:18:36,230 --> 00:18:34,320
of the account so if you just kind of

544
00:18:37,430 --> 00:18:36,240
like i wasn't not aware of some of these

545
00:18:40,710 --> 00:18:37,440
things you know

546
00:18:42,150 --> 00:18:40,720
you don't come off seeing john mack as

547
00:18:43,510 --> 00:18:42,160
quite the hero you might have if you

548
00:18:45,430 --> 00:18:43,520
didn't know everything but i want to

549
00:18:46,230 --> 00:18:45,440
know everything so i appreciate that in

550
00:18:48,390 --> 00:18:46,240
the book

551
00:18:49,909 --> 00:18:48,400
but so i particularly want to focus on

552
00:18:52,630 --> 00:18:49,919
the fact that

553
00:18:54,390 --> 00:18:52,640
he's naive because i think that has a

554
00:18:56,630 --> 00:18:54,400
couple of really really important

555
00:18:58,150 --> 00:18:56,640
elements to play in the overall story as

556
00:19:01,430 --> 00:18:58,160
well

557
00:19:03,029 --> 00:19:01,440
right um he as i said he uh he couldn't

558
00:19:04,150 --> 00:19:03,039
wait to tell the world about this thing

559
00:19:07,669 --> 00:19:04,160
he had discovered

560
00:19:09,430 --> 00:19:07,679
was naive

561
00:19:11,350 --> 00:19:09,440
about the reaction that there would be a

562
00:19:13,190 --> 00:19:11,360
you know a very negative reaction from

563
00:19:14,310 --> 00:19:13,200
boss of harvard which came back to to

564
00:19:17,270 --> 00:19:14,320
bite him when they

565
00:19:17,909 --> 00:19:17,280
investigated him but um for example he

566
00:19:20,470 --> 00:19:17,919
told he

567
00:19:20,950 --> 00:19:20,480
told a woman friend uh of his as soon as

568
00:19:27,350 --> 00:19:20,960
he

569
00:19:28,710 --> 00:19:27,360
um

570
00:19:30,310 --> 00:19:28,720
you know i know you're excited about

571
00:19:31,430 --> 00:19:30,320
this but the rest of the world you know

572
00:19:33,590 --> 00:19:31,440
may not be

573
00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:33,600
right there with you on this so he

574
00:19:37,909 --> 00:19:34,480
didn't see that

575
00:19:38,710 --> 00:19:37,919
um and when he gave interviews on the

576
00:19:41,990 --> 00:19:38,720
subject to

577
00:19:44,549 --> 00:19:42,000
you know newspaper people um he was very

578
00:19:46,310 --> 00:19:44,559
in cautious he would say uh uh i don't

579
00:19:50,950 --> 00:19:46,320
know should i talk about astrology

580
00:19:54,870 --> 00:19:54,390
he just spoke too much sometimes he

581
00:19:58,870 --> 00:19:54,880
should have

582
00:20:00,230 --> 00:19:58,880
more and he had been warned about this

583
00:20:03,510 --> 00:20:00,240
but that was his nature

584
00:20:05,110 --> 00:20:03,520
and um um and you know and if we're

585
00:20:07,270 --> 00:20:05,120
talking about his character and

586
00:20:08,789 --> 00:20:07,280
in warts or so this is not necessarily a

587
00:20:10,310 --> 00:20:08,799
character failure but it's an important

588
00:20:12,789 --> 00:20:10,320
element of the story

589
00:20:14,710 --> 00:20:12,799
as i point out his mother died when he

590
00:20:17,350 --> 00:20:14,720
was eight and a half months old

591
00:20:19,669 --> 00:20:17,360
um she died of appendicitis a penicillin

592
00:20:21,990 --> 00:20:19,679
had you know already been discovered but

593
00:20:23,669 --> 00:20:22,000
wasn't really in use and so suddenly

594
00:20:24,549 --> 00:20:23,679
eight and a half months old he loses his

595
00:20:26,950 --> 00:20:24,559
mother

596
00:20:28,549 --> 00:20:26,960
and he never gets over it he spends his

597
00:20:32,070 --> 00:20:28,559
whole life searching for this

598
00:20:34,470 --> 00:20:32,080
absent figure in his life um and i

599
00:20:36,070 --> 00:20:34,480
and and other people i quote in the book

600
00:20:38,390 --> 00:20:36,080
uh make the point that

601
00:20:39,590 --> 00:20:38,400
this was part of his search for what's

602
00:20:42,390 --> 00:20:39,600
missing in the con

603
00:20:43,669 --> 00:20:42,400
in the cosmos some intelligent life or

604
00:20:46,470 --> 00:20:43,679
some missing entity

605
00:20:47,270 --> 00:20:46,480
or god or whatever you want to call it

606
00:20:50,470 --> 00:20:47,280
intelligent

607
00:20:53,110 --> 00:20:50,480
um life uh in the cosmos so

608
00:20:54,070 --> 00:20:53,120
uh that's also a part of his character

609
00:20:56,710 --> 00:20:54,080
maybe i mean

610
00:20:57,909 --> 00:20:56,720
that's a little uh psychoanalytic and

611
00:20:59,909 --> 00:20:57,919
you can kind of go

612
00:21:01,909 --> 00:20:59,919
take it or leave it if you want but what

613
00:21:03,110 --> 00:21:01,919
is true is he kind of uses it for an

614
00:21:05,909 --> 00:21:03,120
excuse for

615
00:21:08,390 --> 00:21:05,919
a lot of bad behavior in his marriage

616
00:21:10,789 --> 00:21:08,400
and in his relationships that most of us

617
00:21:12,470 --> 00:21:10,799
just don't think is very honest or what

618
00:21:15,750 --> 00:21:12,480
we'd expect from a guy

619
00:21:16,310 --> 00:21:15,760
of the standard or caliber that we see

620
00:21:19,909 --> 00:21:16,320
he just

621
00:21:21,510 --> 00:21:19,919
human flaws

622
00:21:22,870 --> 00:21:21,520
the way that the rest of us do but i

623
00:21:24,390 --> 00:21:22,880
really i want to get off on that on the

624
00:21:25,830 --> 00:21:24,400
personal stuff because who cares

625
00:21:27,830 --> 00:21:25,840
the part that really interests me about

626
00:21:30,630 --> 00:21:27,840
the naive part

627
00:21:32,630 --> 00:21:30,640
is that i think it plays so well with so

628
00:21:33,350 --> 00:21:32,640
many of the the things i've investigated

629
00:21:35,990 --> 00:21:33,360
here is

630
00:21:36,630 --> 00:21:36,000
we kind of have a sense that a guy who

631
00:21:43,990 --> 00:21:36,640
is

632
00:21:45,510 --> 00:21:44,000
a pulitzer prize winner i think a lot of

633
00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:45,520
us are a little bit

634
00:21:49,750 --> 00:21:48,480
surprised to hear that he's naive about

635
00:21:51,669 --> 00:21:49,760
kind of how the

636
00:21:53,029 --> 00:21:51,679
how the world works and where that

637
00:21:56,070 --> 00:21:53,039
really comes through

638
00:21:59,669 --> 00:21:56,080
is in the harvard trial i mean

639
00:22:01,830 --> 00:21:59,679
this guy by the grace of god well really

640
00:22:02,549 --> 00:22:01,840
not by the grace of god by the grace of

641
00:22:04,789 --> 00:22:02,559
a couple of

642
00:22:05,990 --> 00:22:04,799
good attorneys that kind of turn up the

643
00:22:08,710 --> 00:22:06,000
heat uh

644
00:22:10,149 --> 00:22:08,720
escapes what would probably be a career

645
00:22:11,430 --> 00:22:10,159
ending what they intended to be a

646
00:22:13,350 --> 00:22:11,440
career-ending

647
00:22:15,110 --> 00:22:13,360
event walk us through that i think it's

648
00:22:17,990 --> 00:22:15,120
a real important part of this history

649
00:22:20,390 --> 00:22:18,000
well let me also say that you know his

650
00:22:22,149 --> 00:22:20,400
naivete was also a strength i mean it

651
00:22:23,990 --> 00:22:22,159
was a freshness that he brought to the

652
00:22:27,029 --> 00:22:24,000
subject and everything he did

653
00:22:29,029 --> 00:22:27,039
and that was not just a negative but it

654
00:22:30,470 --> 00:22:29,039
was a positive two because people sensed

655
00:22:32,470 --> 00:22:30,480
that in him he was brimming with

656
00:22:35,350 --> 00:22:32,480
enthusiasm with confidence

657
00:22:37,190 --> 00:22:35,360
and he was he was a likable person so

658
00:22:39,190 --> 00:22:37,200
harvard was not happy with what he was

659
00:22:40,789 --> 00:22:39,200
hearing about his appearance on oprah to

660
00:22:43,190 --> 00:22:40,799
promote a book he had written

661
00:22:44,149 --> 00:22:43,200
uh he had tried to get a peer-reviewed

662
00:22:46,070 --> 00:22:44,159
article

663
00:22:47,190 --> 00:22:46,080
several times and was rebuffed let me

664
00:22:49,270 --> 00:22:47,200
set this up a little bit just

665
00:22:51,029 --> 00:22:49,280
we'll introduce correct me if i'm wrong

666
00:22:54,070 --> 00:22:51,039
john mack writes a book

667
00:22:55,909 --> 00:22:54,080
abduction human encounters with aliens

668
00:22:58,149 --> 00:22:55,919
as you mentioned he's already been on

669
00:23:00,070 --> 00:22:58,159
the circuit at harvard in terms of

670
00:23:02,070 --> 00:23:00,080
making presentations doing this stuff

671
00:23:05,750 --> 00:23:02,080
but now he really goes public

672
00:23:07,029 --> 00:23:05,760
oprah winfrey larry king he's out there

673
00:23:09,430 --> 00:23:07,039
in this way that you're talking about

674
00:23:11,270 --> 00:23:09,440
just open like hey this is what happens

675
00:23:13,270 --> 00:23:11,280
aliens are abducting people and having

676
00:23:13,990 --> 00:23:13,280
sex with them in order to hybrid humans

677
00:23:16,070 --> 00:23:14,000
you know that

678
00:23:17,110 --> 00:23:16,080
that's the news flash here from harvard

679
00:23:19,350 --> 00:23:17,120
you know

680
00:23:20,950 --> 00:23:19,360
so harvard doesn't like that zoho

681
00:23:22,789 --> 00:23:20,960
doesn't like that now i make the point

682
00:23:24,789 --> 00:23:22,799
in the book alex that harvard is no

683
00:23:26,070 --> 00:23:24,799
stranger to anomalous research i mean

684
00:23:28,230 --> 00:23:26,080
william james

685
00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:28,240
you know was talking about seances at

686
00:23:31,590 --> 00:23:30,080
harvard 100 years ago and they were okay

687
00:23:32,390 --> 00:23:31,600
with that they don't disown william

688
00:23:34,549 --> 00:23:32,400
james

689
00:23:36,070 --> 00:23:34,559
but there was something about john mack

690
00:23:37,830 --> 00:23:36,080
that rubbed him the wrong way

691
00:23:39,270 --> 00:23:37,840
and i think it was as you mentioned his

692
00:23:41,830 --> 00:23:39,280
appearance on oprah

693
00:23:42,549 --> 00:23:41,840
uh he was all over the media and he was

694
00:23:45,590 --> 00:23:42,559
a kind of a

695
00:23:46,549 --> 00:23:45,600
open guy about it and maybe that that

696
00:23:48,870 --> 00:23:46,559
disturbed them

697
00:23:50,149 --> 00:23:48,880
uh apart from the subject of alien

698
00:23:52,390 --> 00:23:50,159
abduction being associated

699
00:23:54,070 --> 00:23:52,400
with harvard and a harvard professor so

700
00:23:56,789 --> 00:23:54,080
anyway they convened this secret

701
00:23:58,310 --> 00:23:56,799
um inquiry which uh i call and they

702
00:24:01,350 --> 00:23:58,320
called at one point and

703
00:24:02,149 --> 00:24:01,360
they mentioned uh as an inquisition now

704
00:24:04,950 --> 00:24:02,159
they said

705
00:24:06,630 --> 00:24:04,960
to him this is not an inquisition but he

706
00:24:08,710 --> 00:24:06,640
he's a harvard psychiatrist

707
00:24:10,630 --> 00:24:08,720
he says well if it's not an inquisition

708
00:24:11,510 --> 00:24:10,640
why do they use that word to describe

709
00:24:13,190 --> 00:24:11,520
what it isn't

710
00:24:15,029 --> 00:24:13,200
so it's not it's not about the money

711
00:24:19,029 --> 00:24:15,039
this is not about the money right

712
00:24:21,750 --> 00:24:19,039
right um so uh it was an inquisition it

713
00:24:23,750 --> 00:24:21,760
inquired into his finances and acquired

714
00:24:26,149 --> 00:24:23,760
into his mental processes

715
00:24:26,789 --> 00:24:26,159
did he believe in ufos i mean all these

716
00:24:28,470 --> 00:24:26,799
things

717
00:24:30,149 --> 00:24:28,480
that really should not be part of an

718
00:24:33,350 --> 00:24:30,159
inquiry of a professor

719
00:24:36,710 --> 00:24:33,360
uh you know enjoying academic freedom at

720
00:24:39,669 --> 00:24:36,720
a major university uh so they

721
00:24:41,750 --> 00:24:39,679
uh called in his his experiencers they

722
00:24:42,950 --> 00:24:41,760
called in his colleagues

723
00:24:44,070 --> 00:24:42,960
a lot of people they called in

724
00:24:45,909 --> 00:24:44,080
colleagues who were not particularly

725
00:24:47,669 --> 00:24:45,919
friendly to him because

726
00:24:49,430 --> 00:24:47,679
he took some of their patience and

727
00:24:51,269 --> 00:24:49,440
treated them when they caught when

728
00:24:53,190 --> 00:24:51,279
you know fellow psychiatrists wouldn't

729
00:24:54,789 --> 00:24:53,200
deal with the abductees

730
00:24:57,510 --> 00:24:54,799
so there were some people who had an axe

731
00:25:00,149 --> 00:24:57,520
to grind and the committee

732
00:25:00,710 --> 00:25:00,159
spoke to them and the committee was also

733
00:25:02,950 --> 00:25:00,720
very

734
00:25:04,149 --> 00:25:02,960
weighted towards scientific materialists

735
00:25:06,710 --> 00:25:04,159
if you can't touch it

736
00:25:07,269 --> 00:25:06,720
you know measure it taste it it ain't it

737
00:25:10,310 --> 00:25:07,279
ain't bad

738
00:25:12,310 --> 00:25:10,320
it doesn't exist and john mack was

739
00:25:14,070 --> 00:25:12,320
trying to tell them that there are

740
00:25:16,470 --> 00:25:14,080
things that we don't understand

741
00:25:17,269 --> 00:25:16,480
in the universe and even physics is

742
00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:17,279
beginning to

743
00:25:22,149 --> 00:25:20,720
grapple with these now um spooky action

744
00:25:23,750 --> 00:25:22,159
at a distance and all the things that

745
00:25:25,190 --> 00:25:23,760
are supposedly impossible

746
00:25:26,789 --> 00:25:25,200
uh so he was trying to explain to them

747
00:25:28,470 --> 00:25:26,799
that things we don't understand but it

748
00:25:30,070 --> 00:25:28,480
doesn't mean that they're not real

749
00:25:31,590 --> 00:25:30,080
and they said well what's your proof and

750
00:25:32,950 --> 00:25:31,600
he said i don't really have any proof

751
00:25:35,430 --> 00:25:32,960
because this phenomenon

752
00:25:36,950 --> 00:25:35,440
doesn't lend itself to proof as we

753
00:25:40,230 --> 00:25:36,960
usually understand it

754
00:25:41,909 --> 00:25:40,240
so they had this standoff

755
00:25:44,470 --> 00:25:41,919
but as you said john mack had the

756
00:25:47,669 --> 00:25:44,480
benefit of two outstanding lawyers

757
00:25:48,549 --> 00:25:47,679
one was danny sheehan a jesuit lawyer

758
00:25:52,390 --> 00:25:48,559
who had

759
00:25:54,830 --> 00:25:52,400
um uh investigated the you know the uh

760
00:25:56,950 --> 00:25:54,840
iran contra arms scandal the reagan

761
00:25:57,830 --> 00:25:56,960
administration the karen silkwood casey

762
00:25:59,830 --> 00:25:57,840
representative

763
00:26:01,750 --> 00:25:59,840
the family in that famous you know

764
00:26:04,789 --> 00:26:01,760
plutonium poisoning case

765
00:26:07,510 --> 00:26:04,799
um and the other was eric mcleish who

766
00:26:08,630 --> 00:26:07,520
had just exposed the priest abuse

767
00:26:09,990 --> 00:26:08,640
scandal in boston

768
00:26:11,990 --> 00:26:10,000
i think was interesting in the book and

769
00:26:12,789 --> 00:26:12,000
it's interesting here and i'm not at all

770
00:26:14,710 --> 00:26:12,799
against it

771
00:26:16,470 --> 00:26:14,720
when you say danny sheehan then you say

772
00:26:18,149 --> 00:26:16,480
jesuit a lawyer

773
00:26:19,350 --> 00:26:18,159
which you know like a lot of people

774
00:26:19,909 --> 00:26:19,360
aren't clueing into what you're saying

775
00:26:24,310 --> 00:26:19,919
they're

776
00:26:27,190 --> 00:26:24,320
jesuit catholic versus eric mcleish

777
00:26:28,789 --> 00:26:27,200
exposing the pedo pope kind of whole

778
00:26:31,110 --> 00:26:28,799
thing as that's thing

779
00:26:32,070 --> 00:26:31,120
it's very very interesting that these

780
00:26:35,110 --> 00:26:32,080
two guys do it

781
00:26:37,029 --> 00:26:35,120
and there's also a dynamic here that i

782
00:26:40,070 --> 00:26:37,039
heard your excellent interview

783
00:26:42,070 --> 00:26:40,080
with um whitley strieber

784
00:26:44,149 --> 00:26:42,080
you know and i've spoken with whitley a

785
00:26:45,750 --> 00:26:44,159
couple of times on this

786
00:26:47,590 --> 00:26:45,760
and there's just a slightly different

787
00:26:50,710 --> 00:26:47,600
flavor here that i wanted to

788
00:26:53,029 --> 00:26:50,720
ask you about because both whitley and

789
00:26:55,669 --> 00:26:53,039
if you watch like uh the presentations

790
00:26:57,350 --> 00:26:55,679
that uh danny has done like on youtube

791
00:26:58,870 --> 00:26:57,360
on this

792
00:27:00,230 --> 00:26:58,880
it doesn't conflict at all with what

793
00:27:01,350 --> 00:27:00,240
you're saying it just puts a different

794
00:27:05,110 --> 00:27:01,360
light on it the the

795
00:27:09,110 --> 00:27:05,120
what they paint is a guy being john mack

796
00:27:12,549 --> 00:27:09,120
who's completely out of his league

797
00:27:13,350 --> 00:27:12,559
completely lost in the weeds walks into

798
00:27:15,750 --> 00:27:13,360
this thing

799
00:27:17,669 --> 00:27:15,760
basically takes the attorney that the

800
00:27:18,710 --> 00:27:17,679
harvard board gives him so oh you need

801
00:27:20,789 --> 00:27:18,720
representation

802
00:27:22,549 --> 00:27:20,799
here's the attorney you should use and

803
00:27:23,350 --> 00:27:22,559
this guy's just setting them up for

804
00:27:25,269 --> 00:27:23,360
failure

805
00:27:26,630 --> 00:27:25,279
and danny says i got in there and i was

806
00:27:29,590 --> 00:27:26,640
like

807
00:27:30,710 --> 00:27:29,600
to heck with that stuff no we are going

808
00:27:33,190 --> 00:27:30,720
after these guys

809
00:27:34,310 --> 00:27:33,200
and we're going to take them on but

810
00:27:36,950 --> 00:27:34,320
until then

811
00:27:37,830 --> 00:27:36,960
john mack it's not his doing he he kind

812
00:27:39,590 --> 00:27:37,840
of goes along

813
00:27:40,950 --> 00:27:39,600
he's smart enough to get a good attorney

814
00:27:43,350 --> 00:27:40,960
and go along but he's

815
00:27:45,669 --> 00:27:43,360
not smart enough he he thought it was

816
00:27:46,630 --> 00:27:45,679
just going to be a a conversation among

817
00:27:49,190 --> 00:27:46,640
collegial

818
00:27:49,909 --> 00:27:49,200
you know fellow uh faculty members at

819
00:27:51,990 --> 00:27:49,919
harvard

820
00:27:53,830 --> 00:27:52,000
so he goes in first without a lawyer and

821
00:27:55,909 --> 00:27:53,840
then his nephew who's a

822
00:27:57,350 --> 00:27:55,919
doctor at harvard medical school said

823
00:27:58,870 --> 00:27:57,360
what are you crazy are you

824
00:28:01,269 --> 00:27:58,880
you know trying to channel lawrence of

825
00:28:03,590 --> 00:28:01,279
arabia be a martyr like him

826
00:28:05,110 --> 00:28:03,600
you need representation so he gets

827
00:28:07,110 --> 00:28:05,120
representation but he gets a lawyer who

828
00:28:09,350 --> 00:28:07,120
worked for harvard

829
00:28:10,310 --> 00:28:09,360
um and that was that didn't work out so

830
00:28:12,310 --> 00:28:10,320
well because the law

831
00:28:13,510 --> 00:28:12,320
that lawyer's first advice was cooperate

832
00:28:15,190 --> 00:28:13,520
with the committee

833
00:28:16,950 --> 00:28:15,200
see what they want cooperate with them

834
00:28:18,470 --> 00:28:16,960
and then when that didn't work out and

835
00:28:20,630 --> 00:28:18,480
he gets danny she and

836
00:28:22,310 --> 00:28:20,640
he says what are you crazy this guy he

837
00:28:25,269 --> 00:28:22,320
gave you bad advice

838
00:28:27,909 --> 00:28:25,279
and um and you need a firebrand now

839
00:28:31,029 --> 00:28:27,919
danny tells the story of course

840
00:28:32,789 --> 00:28:31,039
centering it on danny

841
00:28:35,269 --> 00:28:32,799
and you know so that's an interesting

842
00:28:37,750 --> 00:28:35,279
dynamic he's a very charismatic guy and

843
00:28:39,510 --> 00:28:37,760
and he was very gung-ho and i read his

844
00:28:42,870 --> 00:28:39,520
legal memos on the case

845
00:28:45,750 --> 00:28:42,880
and they are funny i mean they um

846
00:28:46,070 --> 00:28:45,760
are in capital letters you know and he

847
00:28:47,990 --> 00:28:46,080
went

848
00:28:49,510 --> 00:28:48,000
he did he did go after him and the

849
00:28:51,190 --> 00:28:49,520
evidence suggests that he scared the

850
00:28:52,470 --> 00:28:51,200
out of harvard and that was that's

851
00:28:55,430 --> 00:28:52,480
what really changed the

852
00:28:57,110 --> 00:28:55,440
the thing well yes both of them did eric

853
00:28:58,470 --> 00:28:57,120
too but but danny was particularly

854
00:29:00,070 --> 00:28:58,480
combative and

855
00:29:02,070 --> 00:29:00,080
you know something you said about the

856
00:29:03,669 --> 00:29:02,080
catholic church here

857
00:29:05,350 --> 00:29:03,679
really resonated with me because

858
00:29:07,990 --> 00:29:05,360
remember this the vatican

859
00:29:09,269 --> 00:29:08,000
is pretty pro-ufo i mean they are

860
00:29:11,510 --> 00:29:09,279
recently

861
00:29:13,269 --> 00:29:11,520
well they have a ufologist basically

862
00:29:15,110 --> 00:29:13,279
they've always been interested in

863
00:29:17,110 --> 00:29:15,120
you know strange things in the heavens

864
00:29:18,470 --> 00:29:17,120
and marian apparitions

865
00:29:20,549 --> 00:29:18,480
and if you you know if you're trying to

866
00:29:22,310 --> 00:29:20,559
tell people that there was a miracle

867
00:29:24,389 --> 00:29:22,320
uh you know a virgin birth with jesus

868
00:29:26,149 --> 00:29:24,399
then you can't start saying well

869
00:29:28,310 --> 00:29:26,159
these other miracles don't count or

870
00:29:29,990 --> 00:29:28,320
these other paranormal things don't

871
00:29:30,389 --> 00:29:30,000
count i mean that's my take on it and

872
00:29:33,870 --> 00:29:30,399
john

873
00:29:36,950 --> 00:29:33,880
met with the vatican cosmologists cosmic

874
00:29:38,549 --> 00:29:36,960
cosmologist not a cosmetologist and it

875
00:29:39,510 --> 00:29:38,559
was very interesting he took that very

876
00:29:42,549 --> 00:29:39,520
seriously

877
00:29:44,070 --> 00:29:42,559
so um but you're right to to to

878
00:29:44,710 --> 00:29:44,080
highlight that aspect of it was very

879
00:29:47,750 --> 00:29:44,720
interesting

880
00:29:48,950 --> 00:29:47,760
and and danny sheehan by the way um as a

881
00:29:51,350 --> 00:29:48,960
really firebrand

882
00:29:52,549 --> 00:29:51,360
lawyer with jesuit training so he had

883
00:29:55,590 --> 00:29:52,559
even more of

884
00:29:57,510 --> 00:29:55,600
you know prosecutorial uh zest

885
00:29:59,190 --> 00:29:57,520
uh knew something about ufos he was

886
00:30:02,310 --> 00:29:59,200
interested in them from the beginning

887
00:30:04,070 --> 00:30:02,320
so that was a good match-up you know one

888
00:30:05,750 --> 00:30:04,080
other thing to just touch on and i don't

889
00:30:07,430 --> 00:30:05,760
know if you got there

890
00:30:09,430 --> 00:30:07,440
but the one thing that kept playing in

891
00:30:12,549 --> 00:30:09,440
the back of my mind is

892
00:30:13,909 --> 00:30:12,559
oh harvard you know we have to keep to

893
00:30:16,070 --> 00:30:13,919
these standards

894
00:30:18,470 --> 00:30:16,080
i mean what about the whole mk ultra

895
00:30:21,110 --> 00:30:18,480
stuff that's going on at harvard right

896
00:30:23,350 --> 00:30:21,120
so you know there's henry murray who is

897
00:30:24,470 --> 00:30:23,360
all right right-hand man of sydney

898
00:30:28,070 --> 00:30:24,480
gottlieb

899
00:30:29,909 --> 00:30:28,080
and his oss ci he becomes cia and he's

900
00:30:32,549 --> 00:30:29,919
directly linked to all this stuff

901
00:30:33,430 --> 00:30:32,559
he's directly linked to anyone who uh

902
00:30:35,669 --> 00:30:33,440
looks to the

903
00:30:38,070 --> 00:30:35,679
ted kaczynski stuff that's not just

904
00:30:40,070 --> 00:30:38,080
conspiratorial banter that's just true

905
00:30:41,830 --> 00:30:40,080
ted godzinski was in his class was part

906
00:30:42,950 --> 00:30:41,840
of a program so i don't know if this

907
00:30:47,110 --> 00:30:42,960
harvard board

908
00:30:48,789 --> 00:30:47,120
was aware of some of harvard's darker

909
00:30:50,230 --> 00:30:48,799
connections but it seemed kind of

910
00:30:53,190 --> 00:30:50,240
strange to me

911
00:30:55,190 --> 00:30:53,200
especially when you look into mk ultra

912
00:30:58,149 --> 00:30:55,200
and again i don't know if this is your

913
00:30:58,470 --> 00:30:58,159
this is your bag or not but i've heard

914
00:31:01,990 --> 00:30:58,480
it

915
00:31:05,190 --> 00:31:02,000
that one of the

916
00:31:08,310 --> 00:31:05,200
aspects of mk mkultra was

917
00:31:11,830 --> 00:31:08,320
hey we might know something about

918
00:31:14,549 --> 00:31:11,840
the mental phenomenon associated with et

919
00:31:16,549 --> 00:31:14,559
and therefore let's start looking at the

920
00:31:17,029 --> 00:31:16,559
mental aspect of this more broadly

921
00:31:18,789 --> 00:31:17,039
because

922
00:31:20,310 --> 00:31:18,799
mk ultra had a lot of tentacles and was

923
00:31:21,830 --> 00:31:20,320
looking a lot of different directions

924
00:31:23,190 --> 00:31:21,840
right and e.t might have been one of

925
00:31:24,389 --> 00:31:23,200
them so do you think there was any

926
00:31:27,830 --> 00:31:24,399
awareness

927
00:31:29,430 --> 00:31:27,840
there of i don't think harvard was

928
00:31:31,029 --> 00:31:29,440
trying to cover that up but i do get

929
00:31:33,350 --> 00:31:31,039
into mkultra

930
00:31:35,350 --> 00:31:33,360
a little bit in the book because the

931
00:31:37,950 --> 00:31:35,360
woman who

932
00:31:39,269 --> 00:31:37,960
connected mac to bud hopkins was a

933
00:31:41,509 --> 00:31:39,279
psychotherapist

934
00:31:43,110 --> 00:31:41,519
who had come across an abduction case in

935
00:31:46,230 --> 00:31:43,120
her

936
00:31:49,190 --> 00:31:46,240
you know medical career and you know be

937
00:31:50,789 --> 00:31:49,200
became aware of the whole phenomenon of

938
00:31:51,430 --> 00:31:50,799
you know alien beings appearing to

939
00:31:54,789 --> 00:31:51,440
people

940
00:31:56,789 --> 00:31:54,799
and she sort of told uh and she knew

941
00:31:58,870 --> 00:31:56,799
about hopkins and she told john to see

942
00:32:00,470 --> 00:31:58,880
but but this woman whose name was bland

943
00:32:02,630 --> 00:32:00,480
chavosti who's

944
00:32:03,990 --> 00:32:02,640
not much information available about her

945
00:32:07,430 --> 00:32:04,000
she's died since

946
00:32:08,870 --> 00:32:07,440
but she identified herself as an mk

947
00:32:12,149 --> 00:32:08,880
ultra victim

948
00:32:14,310 --> 00:32:12,159
and horrendous stories and i looked into

949
00:32:15,830 --> 00:32:14,320
mk ultra for the book and it was all

950
00:32:17,830 --> 00:32:15,840
true i mean the church committee

951
00:32:21,509 --> 00:32:17,840
investigated it this was a

952
00:32:24,630 --> 00:32:21,519
dastardly plot by the cia

953
00:32:26,789 --> 00:32:24,640
to you know administer mind-altering

954
00:32:29,110 --> 00:32:26,799
drugs to ordinary citizens to see how

955
00:32:31,029 --> 00:32:29,120
they react and there was a terrible

956
00:32:32,389 --> 00:32:31,039
scandal when it came out people died

957
00:32:33,830 --> 00:32:32,399
people committed suicide they were

958
00:32:35,909 --> 00:32:33,840
driven insane

959
00:32:37,269 --> 00:32:35,919
and um and then all the records were

960
00:32:40,630 --> 00:32:37,279
lost uh

961
00:32:43,430 --> 00:32:40,640
quote lost so um it reads like a

962
00:32:43,990 --> 00:32:43,440
you know a q anon conspiratorial you

963
00:32:46,549 --> 00:32:44,000
know

964
00:32:47,750 --> 00:32:46,559
screed but this was true and it was

965
00:32:50,230 --> 00:32:47,760
horrendous

966
00:32:51,750 --> 00:32:50,240
and um so i know cornell was involved

967
00:32:53,750 --> 00:32:51,760
i'm not sure about harvard

968
00:32:56,070 --> 00:32:53,760
but a lot of uh you know top

969
00:32:58,549 --> 00:32:56,080
institutions um

970
00:32:59,190 --> 00:32:58,559
allowed their facilities to be used by

971
00:33:02,230 --> 00:32:59,200
you know

972
00:33:04,950 --> 00:33:02,240
mk ultra the program and the cia

973
00:33:06,710 --> 00:33:04,960
so um but the one thing that the

974
00:33:08,870 --> 00:33:06,720
committee said that was that john mack

975
00:33:11,350 --> 00:33:08,880
picked up on that was interesting

976
00:33:11,909 --> 00:33:11,360
the the committee said we want to see if

977
00:33:14,549 --> 00:33:11,919
you've been

978
00:33:15,909 --> 00:33:14,559
adhering to a proper scientific

979
00:33:18,870 --> 00:33:15,919
procedure

980
00:33:20,149 --> 00:33:18,880
and he said what the hell is proposing i

981
00:33:22,470 --> 00:33:20,159
thought science

982
00:33:24,070 --> 00:33:22,480
you know is supposed to break you know

983
00:33:26,549 --> 00:33:24,080
boundaries of procedure not

984
00:33:27,909 --> 00:33:26,559
you know adhere to certain i'm sure you

985
00:33:30,070 --> 00:33:27,919
have to have scientific you know

986
00:33:31,830 --> 00:33:30,080
science protocols but there's no

987
00:33:33,269 --> 00:33:31,840
boundaries to what you can look into and

988
00:33:36,310 --> 00:33:33,279
what you can't look into

989
00:33:37,830 --> 00:33:36,320
in science uh so uh that was something

990
00:33:39,509 --> 00:33:37,840
that the committee thought that this was

991
00:33:41,509 --> 00:33:39,519
somehow inappropriate

992
00:33:43,750 --> 00:33:41,519
for harvard and john mack to be looking

993
00:33:45,430 --> 00:33:43,760
into this alien abduction

994
00:33:46,789 --> 00:33:45,440
you know ralph one one of the things

995
00:33:47,509 --> 00:33:46,799
that struck me right from the beginning

996
00:33:50,230 --> 00:33:47,519
of your book

997
00:33:50,789 --> 00:33:50,240
is i got the sense that from this kind

998
00:33:53,830 --> 00:33:50,799
of

999
00:33:56,149 --> 00:33:53,840
academia standpoint that

1000
00:33:57,590 --> 00:33:56,159
how much times have changed because

1001
00:33:58,710 --> 00:33:57,600
despite everything we're saying about

1002
00:34:01,269 --> 00:33:58,720
the kind of

1003
00:34:01,909 --> 00:34:01,279
deep dark secrets there i got the sense

1004
00:34:04,950 --> 00:34:01,919
that these

1005
00:34:07,190 --> 00:34:04,960
guys harvard guys were sensitive to

1006
00:34:08,790 --> 00:34:07,200
academic freedom and that was really

1007
00:34:09,430 --> 00:34:08,800
something that they did not want to be

1008
00:34:11,750 --> 00:34:09,440
perceived

1009
00:34:12,790 --> 00:34:11,760
as standing in the way of and it really

1010
00:34:14,790 --> 00:34:12,800
did carry weight

1011
00:34:16,069 --> 00:34:14,800
i don't think the environment is quite

1012
00:34:19,430 --> 00:34:16,079
the same today

1013
00:34:20,069 --> 00:34:19,440
i think just people are squashed a lot

1014
00:34:21,430 --> 00:34:20,079
more

1015
00:34:24,069 --> 00:34:21,440
than they were and i wonder if you have

1016
00:34:25,589 --> 00:34:24,079
any opinion on how this would all play

1017
00:34:27,750 --> 00:34:25,599
today

1018
00:34:29,829 --> 00:34:27,760
interesting you know we are in what they

1019
00:34:33,109 --> 00:34:29,839
call cancel culture now

1020
00:34:35,990 --> 00:34:33,119
and um it's true that

1021
00:34:38,389 --> 00:34:36,000
um there's a lot less tolerance given

1022
00:34:40,790 --> 00:34:38,399
the ubiquity of social media

1023
00:34:42,389 --> 00:34:40,800
to any mistakes or missteps and people

1024
00:34:45,270 --> 00:34:42,399
are quashed you know if they step

1025
00:34:46,069 --> 00:34:45,280
outside the line whether it's me too or

1026
00:34:47,990 --> 00:34:46,079
you know any

1027
00:34:50,149 --> 00:34:48,000
any utterance that made in their lives

1028
00:34:53,510 --> 00:34:50,159
that now appears controversial

1029
00:34:54,869 --> 00:34:53,520
um comes back to haunt them so i think

1030
00:34:56,629 --> 00:34:54,879
you're right that if this

1031
00:34:58,150 --> 00:34:56,639
had come up today that probably would

1032
00:34:59,910 --> 00:34:58,160
have been uh less time

1033
00:35:01,990 --> 00:34:59,920
john mack would have been swamped with

1034
00:35:04,069 --> 00:35:02,000
complaints and i mean

1035
00:35:05,510 --> 00:35:04,079
on the other hand i think society is

1036
00:35:08,630 --> 00:35:05,520
more open now

1037
00:35:09,990 --> 00:35:08,640
to the paranormal um the stories we did

1038
00:35:13,270 --> 00:35:10,000
in the new

1039
00:35:15,349 --> 00:35:13,280
navy videos of ufos which

1040
00:35:16,310 --> 00:35:15,359
the pentagon now acknowledges as

1041
00:35:18,550 --> 00:35:16,320
authentic

1042
00:35:20,550 --> 00:35:18,560
have woken people up to the fact that

1043
00:35:21,030 --> 00:35:20,560
you know there is this phenomenon out

1044
00:35:23,030 --> 00:35:21,040
there

1045
00:35:24,150 --> 00:35:23,040
that is that is a genuine fruit i mean

1046
00:35:25,750 --> 00:35:24,160
these things exist

1047
00:35:27,190 --> 00:35:25,760
we don't know what they are you don't

1048
00:35:30,550 --> 00:35:27,200
know where they come from

1049
00:35:33,270 --> 00:35:30,560
um but but they're not you know uh

1050
00:35:35,510 --> 00:35:33,280
uh mental delusions they're not you know

1051
00:35:35,990 --> 00:35:35,520
spiritual constructs they are physically

1052
00:35:39,750 --> 00:35:36,000
real

1053
00:35:42,950 --> 00:35:39,760
pursue that

1054
00:35:44,550 --> 00:35:42,960
since society has moved forward let's uh

1055
00:35:45,750 --> 00:35:44,560
push that a little bit further because

1056
00:35:48,790 --> 00:35:45,760
it's always tricky

1057
00:35:52,390 --> 00:35:48,800
you know these things are real

1058
00:35:55,349 --> 00:35:52,400
like even that simple point

1059
00:35:57,190 --> 00:35:55,359
that in the book i have to say you know

1060
00:35:59,750 --> 00:35:57,200
anyone again

1061
00:36:01,030 --> 00:35:59,760
please get this book and here's another

1062
00:36:03,589 --> 00:36:01,040
reason to get it

1063
00:36:06,069 --> 00:36:03,599
at the beginning is i don't know 50 60

1064
00:36:09,270 --> 00:36:06,079
pages of just

1065
00:36:12,710 --> 00:36:09,280
a summary of the whole ufo

1066
00:36:14,710 --> 00:36:12,720
thing of from beginning to end and uh

1067
00:36:15,990 --> 00:36:14,720
to very factual accounts of this account

1068
00:36:16,790 --> 00:36:16,000
this account and that led to this

1069
00:36:19,109 --> 00:36:16,800
account and they're

1070
00:36:20,630 --> 00:36:19,119
chronologically laid out as is the

1071
00:36:23,829 --> 00:36:20,640
abduction phenomenon

1072
00:36:27,030 --> 00:36:23,839
so i walk away from that saying

1073
00:36:29,270 --> 00:36:27,040
okay this guy ralph blumenthal is

1074
00:36:30,710 --> 00:36:29,280
just telling it like it is about the

1075
00:36:31,990 --> 00:36:30,720
reality of this

1076
00:36:33,829 --> 00:36:32,000
but by the time you get to the end of

1077
00:36:34,550 --> 00:36:33,839
the book there's also this kind of same

1078
00:36:36,630 --> 00:36:34,560
shift that

1079
00:36:37,829 --> 00:36:36,640
john mack does and that so many people

1080
00:36:41,510 --> 00:36:37,839
do of like

1081
00:36:44,069 --> 00:36:41,520
well how real is it in terms of this

1082
00:36:46,630 --> 00:36:44,079
consensus reality materialist

1083
00:36:47,990 --> 00:36:46,640
i'll go out and drive my car kind of

1084
00:36:50,550 --> 00:36:48,000
thing

1085
00:36:53,430 --> 00:36:50,560
do you feel any need to kind of play in

1086
00:36:55,109 --> 00:36:53,440
that middle space there or is this just

1087
00:36:56,550 --> 00:36:55,119
real in the way that we think that it's

1088
00:37:00,950 --> 00:36:56,560
real

1089
00:37:04,710 --> 00:37:00,960
and david jacobs

1090
00:37:06,790 --> 00:37:04,720
together thought it was real um

1091
00:37:08,550 --> 00:37:06,800
and that it was happening in in everyday

1092
00:37:09,510 --> 00:37:08,560
reality people were really getting

1093
00:37:13,270 --> 00:37:09,520
abducted by

1094
00:37:15,349 --> 00:37:13,280
really evil beings for really

1095
00:37:16,790 --> 00:37:15,359
you know traumatic and horrendous

1096
00:37:20,550 --> 00:37:16,800
experiments

1097
00:37:23,270 --> 00:37:20,560
and john who john mack who started off

1098
00:37:24,069 --> 00:37:23,280
basically agreeing with that i came to

1099
00:37:27,270 --> 00:37:24,079
think that

1100
00:37:29,589 --> 00:37:27,280
it's got to be happening in some more um

1101
00:37:31,510 --> 00:37:29,599
marginal realm because it's not everyday

1102
00:37:33,270 --> 00:37:31,520
we don't see it there's no proof of it

1103
00:37:33,910 --> 00:37:33,280
you know we never capture it it's never

1104
00:37:35,750 --> 00:37:33,920
kept

1105
00:37:37,270 --> 00:37:35,760
abductions have never been captured on

1106
00:37:40,630 --> 00:37:37,280
film um

1107
00:37:41,510 --> 00:37:40,640
unlike ufos uh let's say whose images

1108
00:37:44,630 --> 00:37:41,520
have been

1109
00:37:46,470 --> 00:37:44,640
uh recorded on radar and and film but

1110
00:37:48,150 --> 00:37:46,480
let's just talk about alien abduction no

1111
00:37:50,069 --> 00:37:48,160
there's no pictures of an alien

1112
00:37:52,069 --> 00:37:50,079
no pictures of an alien that have been

1113
00:37:54,230 --> 00:37:52,079
authenticated

1114
00:37:57,030 --> 00:37:54,240
so john moreno thought that this has got

1115
00:37:59,270 --> 00:37:57,040
to be happening in some other reality

1116
00:38:02,069 --> 00:37:59,280
it penetrates our reality was the way he

1117
00:38:05,349 --> 00:38:02,079
put it from time to time in certain ways

1118
00:38:08,390 --> 00:38:05,359
but um it is not everyday reality

1119
00:38:11,270 --> 00:38:08,400
and more and more he thought it was um

1120
00:38:11,829 --> 00:38:11,280
linked to other uh paranormal phenomena

1121
00:38:14,310 --> 00:38:11,839
it's not just

1122
00:38:15,910 --> 00:38:14,320
alien abduction that's standing alone

1123
00:38:18,069 --> 00:38:15,920
but there's all kinds of other things

1124
00:38:21,670 --> 00:38:18,079
like fairy tale you know irish fairy

1125
00:38:25,109 --> 00:38:21,680
tales and um crop circles

1126
00:38:26,870 --> 00:38:25,119
and uh cattle mutilations and bigfoot

1127
00:38:30,069 --> 00:38:26,880
and lockless monster

1128
00:38:32,310 --> 00:38:30,079
and um old hag syndrome where you know

1129
00:38:34,150 --> 00:38:32,320
the evil creature climbs on your

1130
00:38:35,990 --> 00:38:34,160
chest at night and tries to strangle you

1131
00:38:37,750 --> 00:38:36,000
and the guy who wrote the book about

1132
00:38:39,430 --> 00:38:37,760
that the psychologist that happened to

1133
00:38:42,230 --> 00:38:39,440
him

1134
00:38:44,069 --> 00:38:42,240
so um so there's a whole range of

1135
00:38:47,030 --> 00:38:44,079
paranormal experiences

1136
00:38:47,829 --> 00:38:47,040
that uh he realized are equally

1137
00:38:50,230 --> 00:38:47,839
mysterious

1138
00:38:51,270 --> 00:38:50,240
and maybe related in some way to another

1139
00:38:54,310 --> 00:38:51,280
dimension

1140
00:38:56,150 --> 00:38:54,320
that that uh impacts our own somehow

1141
00:38:57,910 --> 00:38:56,160
and in the end of course he was most

1142
00:38:59,349 --> 00:38:57,920
interested in in life after death and

1143
00:39:02,069 --> 00:38:59,359
what happens

1144
00:39:03,829 --> 00:39:02,079
after bodily death um because that's the

1145
00:39:05,670 --> 00:39:03,839
ultimate mystery

1146
00:39:07,990 --> 00:39:05,680
you know the the only thing that always

1147
00:39:10,230 --> 00:39:08,000
gets me about that perspective is what i

1148
00:39:12,790 --> 00:39:10,240
call backdoor materialism you know

1149
00:39:13,589 --> 00:39:12,800
it says okay i understand there's this

1150
00:39:15,670 --> 00:39:13,599
larger

1151
00:39:17,670 --> 00:39:15,680
conscious reality that extends into

1152
00:39:20,550 --> 00:39:17,680
these other realms of consciousness

1153
00:39:20,870 --> 00:39:20,560
that you just talked about but now let

1154
00:39:24,870 --> 00:39:20,880
me

1155
00:39:26,069 --> 00:39:24,880
now switch to my limited by all accounts

1156
00:39:28,069 --> 00:39:26,079
of those other realms

1157
00:39:30,150 --> 00:39:28,079
my limited understanding of this time

1158
00:39:31,109 --> 00:39:30,160
and space reality and let me talk about

1159
00:39:34,630 --> 00:39:31,119
all those others

1160
00:39:36,950 --> 00:39:34,640
it seems kind of handicapped in kind of

1161
00:39:38,470 --> 00:39:36,960
a way that doesn't really make sense

1162
00:39:40,550 --> 00:39:38,480
i mean it seems to me that if we're

1163
00:39:43,670 --> 00:39:40,560
going to make sense of this stuff

1164
00:39:46,630 --> 00:39:43,680
from this time and space continuum

1165
00:39:49,190 --> 00:39:46,640
then the original path that he was down

1166
00:39:51,589 --> 00:39:49,200
is the path that we have to follow

1167
00:39:53,270 --> 00:39:51,599
you know i had an interesting series of

1168
00:39:54,870 --> 00:39:53,280
interviews on this topic like with david

1169
00:39:55,589 --> 00:39:54,880
jacobs i had him on the show a couple

1170
00:39:57,829 --> 00:39:55,599
times

1171
00:39:58,630 --> 00:39:57,839
and also kind of interleaved those

1172
00:40:00,710 --> 00:39:58,640
interviews

1173
00:40:01,829 --> 00:40:00,720
with a woman named mary rodwell have you

1174
00:40:04,870 --> 00:40:01,839
ever heard of mary rodwell

1175
00:40:05,750 --> 00:40:04,880
sure sure okay well known yeah nice nice

1176
00:40:08,069 --> 00:40:05,760
very nice person

1177
00:40:09,670 --> 00:40:08,079
so they're kind of going back and forth

1178
00:40:10,069 --> 00:40:09,680
on this issue that you explore in the

1179
00:40:12,790 --> 00:40:10,079
book

1180
00:40:14,309 --> 00:40:12,800
of the goody tea versus bad et you know

1181
00:40:16,790 --> 00:40:14,319
evil et versus

1182
00:40:18,390 --> 00:40:16,800
spiritual loving hereto brings

1183
00:40:21,430 --> 00:40:18,400
transformation kind of et

1184
00:40:23,589 --> 00:40:21,440
and david jacobs who is

1185
00:40:25,589 --> 00:40:23,599
it's important to know i think if i can

1186
00:40:28,550 --> 00:40:25,599
interject i think david jacobs

1187
00:40:30,390 --> 00:40:28,560
and uh bud hopkins have to be understood

1188
00:40:31,829 --> 00:40:30,400
from an atheistic perspective

1189
00:40:33,510 --> 00:40:31,839
that's what they see when you talk

1190
00:40:35,430 --> 00:40:33,520
spirituality to those guys

1191
00:40:36,630 --> 00:40:35,440
it just complete they go you're you're

1192
00:40:39,190 --> 00:40:36,640
nuts i mean there's not

1193
00:40:40,790 --> 00:40:39,200
any of it anyway so why even talk about

1194
00:40:44,230 --> 00:40:40,800
it and that's how they see it

1195
00:40:46,710 --> 00:40:44,240
but they also have some pretty solid

1196
00:40:47,990 --> 00:40:46,720
evidence that they bring back that that

1197
00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:48,000
says that i mean like

1198
00:40:51,990 --> 00:40:49,760
david jacobs some people criticize him

1199
00:40:53,190 --> 00:40:52,000
that he's not a professional hypnotist

1200
00:40:55,190 --> 00:40:53,200
well i gotta tell you he's a pretty

1201
00:40:57,190 --> 00:40:55,200
smart guy i think he trained well enough

1202
00:40:58,550 --> 00:40:57,200
and it sounds like his protocol

1203
00:41:00,550 --> 00:40:58,560
was pretty good he tried to

1204
00:41:01,030 --> 00:41:00,560
intentionally mislead people you know he

1205
00:41:03,109 --> 00:41:01,040
would say

1206
00:41:04,550 --> 00:41:03,119
okay now go over to the corner of the

1207
00:41:06,870 --> 00:41:04,560
craft and they'd go

1208
00:41:07,750 --> 00:41:06,880
okay wait a minute there is no corner of

1209
00:41:09,349 --> 00:41:07,760
the craft and he goes

1210
00:41:11,270 --> 00:41:09,359
right okay yeah that is confirming what

1211
00:41:12,790 --> 00:41:11,280
you said anyways i don't want to go on

1212
00:41:14,550 --> 00:41:12,800
too long in this story but

1213
00:41:16,230 --> 00:41:14,560
i'm interviewing david jacobs i'm

1214
00:41:17,510 --> 00:41:16,240
interviewing mary radbull they're going

1215
00:41:21,109 --> 00:41:17,520
back and forth

1216
00:41:21,670 --> 00:41:21,119
one saying evil baddie t sends people

1217
00:41:23,430 --> 00:41:21,680
back

1218
00:41:25,349 --> 00:41:23,440
rapes people which comes through again

1219
00:41:27,670 --> 00:41:25,359
and again i don't know how

1220
00:41:29,270 --> 00:41:27,680
how we understand that inside of our

1221
00:41:33,030 --> 00:41:29,280
culture is anything

1222
00:41:35,589 --> 00:41:33,040
other than the ultimate intrusion of our

1223
00:41:37,750 --> 00:41:35,599
personal space and that is reported and

1224
00:41:39,270 --> 00:41:37,760
then go to mary rodwell says look deeper

1225
00:41:41,190 --> 00:41:39,280
you know there's a spiritual thing but

1226
00:41:43,109 --> 00:41:41,200
here's the point

1227
00:41:45,750 --> 00:41:43,119
david jacobs goes the one thing i'm sure

1228
00:41:47,030 --> 00:41:45,760
is this is a project this is a program

1229
00:41:49,589 --> 00:41:47,040
this is like

1230
00:41:51,190 --> 00:41:49,599
as we would understand it in our world

1231
00:41:53,990 --> 00:41:51,200
somebody's trying to get some

1232
00:41:55,670 --> 00:41:54,000
done right so then i go back and say

1233
00:41:57,430 --> 00:41:55,680
mary what about that

1234
00:41:59,270 --> 00:41:57,440
and she does a big long pause and she

1235
00:42:01,750 --> 00:41:59,280
goes

1236
00:42:02,550 --> 00:42:01,760
yeah well it is definitely a program i

1237
00:42:04,870 --> 00:42:02,560
mean

1238
00:42:06,550 --> 00:42:04,880
they are doing some kind of genetic

1239
00:42:07,190 --> 00:42:06,560
manipulation i don't know what that

1240
00:42:09,390 --> 00:42:07,200
means

1241
00:42:11,349 --> 00:42:09,400
they are doing something there is an

1242
00:42:12,870 --> 00:42:11,359
intentionality to it there is a

1243
00:42:15,750 --> 00:42:12,880
directive to it

1244
00:42:16,069 --> 00:42:15,760
and so i guess i'd throw that out there

1245
00:42:17,750 --> 00:42:16,079
and

1246
00:42:19,589 --> 00:42:17,760
what do you think about that because i

1247
00:42:20,550 --> 00:42:19,599
think when we jump into that other space

1248
00:42:24,950 --> 00:42:20,560
of other re

1249
00:42:27,910 --> 00:42:24,960
you know other dimensions stuff you know

1250
00:42:29,510 --> 00:42:27,920
well listen as jack valet and other uh

1251
00:42:31,030 --> 00:42:29,520
experts have said

1252
00:42:32,630 --> 00:42:31,040
if that's the case they're very bad

1253
00:42:33,430 --> 00:42:32,640
scientists because they have to keep

1254
00:42:35,829 --> 00:42:33,440
doing the same

1255
00:42:37,109 --> 00:42:35,839
experiment over and over again they want

1256
00:42:38,230 --> 00:42:37,119
to know how reproduction human

1257
00:42:40,069 --> 00:42:38,240
reproduction works

1258
00:42:41,349 --> 00:42:40,079
so they take they abduct a man and a

1259
00:42:43,030 --> 00:42:41,359
woman sometimes

1260
00:42:44,790 --> 00:42:43,040
people who know each other and make them

1261
00:42:46,390 --> 00:42:44,800
have sex in front of the

1262
00:42:48,150 --> 00:42:46,400
alien beings so they can understand

1263
00:42:50,550 --> 00:42:48,160
reproduction so as

1264
00:42:51,910 --> 00:42:50,560
one anthropologist told me for my book

1265
00:42:53,990 --> 00:42:51,920
you don't need to do that you just get a

1266
00:42:55,589 --> 00:42:54,000
hygiene manual reproduction is not that

1267
00:42:57,670 --> 00:42:55,599
hard to figure out

1268
00:42:59,270 --> 00:42:57,680
and to make people go through that again

1269
00:43:01,750 --> 00:42:59,280
and again and again

1270
00:43:03,190 --> 00:43:01,760
and to you know examine the bodies again

1271
00:43:05,430 --> 00:43:03,200
and again through all these

1272
00:43:06,710 --> 00:43:05,440
medical procedures that you know the the

1273
00:43:08,309 --> 00:43:06,720
experiences detail

1274
00:43:10,630 --> 00:43:08,319
at great length to the actually

1275
00:43:12,630 --> 00:43:10,640
describing the instruments used

1276
00:43:18,630 --> 00:43:12,640
so why do they have to do it again and

1277
00:43:21,990 --> 00:43:20,470
so so when they asked john mack that

1278
00:43:23,990 --> 00:43:22,000
same question

1279
00:43:27,109 --> 00:43:24,000
he said you know what i'm not a good

1280
00:43:29,910 --> 00:43:27,119
alien psychologist he said i don't i

1281
00:43:32,710 --> 00:43:29,920
can't explain why they do what they do

1282
00:43:34,390 --> 00:43:32,720
um and but it's clear that they do the

1283
00:43:38,069 --> 00:43:34,400
same things over and over again

1284
00:43:40,150 --> 00:43:38,079
uh so um and and jacobs and

1285
00:43:41,430 --> 00:43:40,160
hopkins uh you know found that in their

1286
00:43:43,670 --> 00:43:41,440
research that

1287
00:43:44,710 --> 00:43:43,680
it was very highly traumatic it was akin

1288
00:43:46,950 --> 00:43:44,720
to rape they

1289
00:43:49,349 --> 00:43:46,960
ripped out the pregnancies of women who

1290
00:43:50,390 --> 00:43:49,359
were impregnated on the ships and they

1291
00:43:52,790 --> 00:43:50,400
took their

1292
00:43:54,950 --> 00:43:52,800
you know dna and their eggs and the

1293
00:43:56,630 --> 00:43:54,960
sperm from men and they made hybrid

1294
00:43:58,950 --> 00:43:56,640
babies and then they would re-abduct

1295
00:43:59,910 --> 00:43:58,960
the people later and say these are your

1296
00:44:01,510 --> 00:43:59,920
children

1297
00:44:03,510 --> 00:44:01,520
and you know this was happening in

1298
00:44:09,190 --> 00:44:03,520
absolute reality and you know

1299
00:44:12,150 --> 00:44:09,200
well um john more and more said uh

1300
00:44:12,950 --> 00:44:12,160
i i don't know it doesn't you know i

1301
00:44:15,589 --> 00:44:12,960
can't prove it

1302
00:44:16,870 --> 00:44:15,599
it it it may be happening but not in any

1303
00:44:19,270 --> 00:44:16,880
recognizable

1304
00:44:20,550 --> 00:44:19,280
you know dimension that you know that i

1305
00:44:23,270 --> 00:44:20,560
can point to

1306
00:44:24,950 --> 00:44:23,280
so um and then he started as you say he

1307
00:44:26,150 --> 00:44:24,960
started to drift off into other things

1308
00:44:28,790 --> 00:44:26,160
and he said well let me look into

1309
00:44:29,670 --> 00:44:28,800
crop circles and let me look into viking

1310
00:44:31,829 --> 00:44:29,680
runes

1311
00:44:33,270 --> 00:44:31,839
are you any you know the stones that

1312
00:44:36,470 --> 00:44:33,280
tell the fortune of

1313
00:44:40,069 --> 00:44:36,480
the future um

1314
00:44:43,109 --> 00:44:40,079
so you know it's it's an endless mystery

1315
00:44:44,390 --> 00:44:43,119
what can i say it is dan i always

1316
00:44:47,109 --> 00:44:44,400
i always kind of remind people you know

1317
00:44:48,870 --> 00:44:47,119
i talked to jacques valette too and

1318
00:44:50,950 --> 00:44:48,880
i love and appreciate you know all the

1319
00:44:52,790 --> 00:44:50,960
things that you're saying that he brings

1320
00:44:55,109 --> 00:44:52,800
but he also carries around that slag

1321
00:44:56,870 --> 00:44:55,119
from the alien ships in his pocket too

1322
00:44:58,150 --> 00:44:56,880
and when he goes and analyze it with the

1323
00:44:59,990 --> 00:44:58,160
spec uh you know

1324
00:45:01,510 --> 00:45:00,000
the best microscopes we have we have g

1325
00:45:02,630 --> 00:45:01,520
we don't know how to make that here

1326
00:45:05,750 --> 00:45:02,640
on earth so

1327
00:45:06,550 --> 00:45:05,760
there there is this crossover as you're

1328
00:45:09,670 --> 00:45:06,560
alluding to

1329
00:45:11,270 --> 00:45:09,680
between these different dimensions if we

1330
00:45:12,230 --> 00:45:11,280
want to call it that or these different

1331
00:45:14,230 --> 00:45:12,240
realities

1332
00:45:15,270 --> 00:45:14,240
in our reality i'm just always a little

1333
00:45:18,390 --> 00:45:15,280
bit

1334
00:45:21,109 --> 00:45:18,400
uncomfortable when we speak from the

1335
00:45:21,430 --> 00:45:21,119
primacy of our reality and say well it's

1336
00:45:22,950 --> 00:45:21,440
well

1337
00:45:24,150 --> 00:45:22,960
obviously not true because they're not

1338
00:45:24,950 --> 00:45:24,160
getting raped i don't know whitley

1339
00:45:26,630 --> 00:45:24,960
strieber

1340
00:45:32,150 --> 00:45:26,640
has said from the beginning he was he

1341
00:45:33,430 --> 00:45:32,160
was raped

1342
00:45:35,030 --> 00:45:33,440
and there's plenty of people have the

1343
00:45:36,790 --> 00:45:35,040
implant and some of them turn out to be

1344
00:45:38,710 --> 00:45:36,800
not implants and some of them turn out

1345
00:45:39,349 --> 00:45:38,720
to be that same kind of material looking

1346
00:45:41,190 --> 00:45:39,359
stuff

1347
00:45:42,710 --> 00:45:41,200
that jack valet walks around with and

1348
00:45:43,990 --> 00:45:42,720
likes to collect and says

1349
00:45:46,550 --> 00:45:44,000
we don't know how to make this stuff

1350
00:45:49,430 --> 00:45:46,560
here well jack valet

1351
00:45:50,230 --> 00:45:49,440
said one of the quotes especially like

1352
00:45:52,630 --> 00:45:50,240
from him

1353
00:45:56,550 --> 00:45:52,640
uh he said i'm probably the only

1354
00:45:58,470 --> 00:45:56,560
ufologist who doesn't know what they are

1355
00:46:01,750 --> 00:45:58,480
because everyone else is very ready to

1356
00:46:04,870 --> 00:46:01,760
you know alpine on exactly what these uh

1357
00:46:05,349 --> 00:46:04,880
crafts are or aren't um and he goes back

1358
00:46:07,349 --> 00:46:05,359
and forth

1359
00:46:09,190 --> 00:46:07,359
some days he's he understands it some

1360
00:46:11,190 --> 00:46:09,200
days he doesn't some days he says it's

1361
00:46:14,230 --> 00:46:11,200
real some days he says it isn't

1362
00:46:17,349 --> 00:46:14,240
so he exemplifies the

1363
00:46:18,870 --> 00:46:17,359
the ambiguity of the field um

1364
00:46:21,109 --> 00:46:18,880
you know i have a quote in my book from

1365
00:46:23,430 --> 00:46:21,119
charles fort the great anomalist

1366
00:46:25,349 --> 00:46:23,440
who said the whole thing is like looking

1367
00:46:30,069 --> 00:46:25,359
for a needle no one ever lost

1368
00:46:33,990 --> 00:46:32,870
it's it's it's bottomless i mean uh and

1369
00:46:36,390 --> 00:46:34,000
that's what you know

1370
00:46:38,790 --> 00:46:36,400
obviously it captivated john mack

1371
00:46:40,710 --> 00:46:38,800
because he wasn't finding any answers

1372
00:46:42,950 --> 00:46:40,720
and he just kept getting drawn more and

1373
00:46:44,950 --> 00:46:42,960
more into the mystery

1374
00:46:47,430 --> 00:46:44,960
beautifully put ralph let's talk a

1375
00:46:49,750 --> 00:46:47,440
little bit about the media

1376
00:46:51,510 --> 00:46:49,760
you've spent a good deal of your life

1377
00:46:53,670 --> 00:46:51,520
hey belly of the beast

1378
00:46:54,950 --> 00:46:53,680
kind of media guy uh you know new york

1379
00:46:58,230 --> 00:46:54,960
times

1380
00:47:00,470 --> 00:46:58,240
tell us about how mac was treated by the

1381
00:47:04,309 --> 00:47:00,480
media both good and bad

1382
00:47:06,230 --> 00:47:04,319
um yeah both good and bad is right um

1383
00:47:08,470 --> 00:47:06,240
certainly he was a darling of the media

1384
00:47:09,670 --> 00:47:08,480
because he uh he was a subject of

1385
00:47:11,510 --> 00:47:09,680
countless stories

1386
00:47:13,750 --> 00:47:11,520
in psychology today in the new york

1387
00:47:16,550 --> 00:47:13,760
times time magazine

1388
00:47:17,589 --> 00:47:16,560
um all the networks as i said oprah

1389
00:47:19,349 --> 00:47:17,599
winfrey

1390
00:47:20,950 --> 00:47:19,359
a lot of the talk shows he went on with

1391
00:47:24,230 --> 00:47:20,960
his experiencers

1392
00:47:25,670 --> 00:47:24,240
often to his later uh

1393
00:47:27,430 --> 00:47:25,680
chagrin and disappointment because he

1394
00:47:27,670 --> 00:47:27,440
said we got sandbagged because he you

1395
00:47:30,710 --> 00:47:27,680
know

1396
00:47:33,990 --> 00:47:30,720
again there's naivete you don't go on a

1397
00:47:34,950 --> 00:47:34,000
you know tv uh you know talks a reality

1398
00:47:39,109 --> 00:47:34,960
show

1399
00:47:40,710 --> 00:47:39,119
i think you're gonna

1400
00:47:42,710 --> 00:47:40,720
and they're going to be well treated you

1401
00:47:45,349 --> 00:47:42,720
know because they're looking for blood

1402
00:47:46,870 --> 00:47:45,359
um they're linked for a story right

1403
00:47:50,150 --> 00:47:46,880
looking for a sensation

1404
00:47:51,030 --> 00:47:50,160
um so uh so in many ways he was treated

1405
00:47:54,710 --> 00:47:51,040
badly

1406
00:47:55,829 --> 00:47:54,720
with great skepticism he said the times

1407
00:47:58,630 --> 00:47:55,839
never wrote me up

1408
00:47:59,750 --> 00:47:58,640
in a way that wasn't snide was his his

1409
00:48:01,510 --> 00:47:59,760
take on it

1410
00:48:03,670 --> 00:48:01,520
um on the other hand he was constantly

1411
00:48:05,829 --> 00:48:03,680
being written up and not all of it was

1412
00:48:07,829 --> 00:48:05,839
negative

1413
00:48:09,829 --> 00:48:07,839
he was a darling of the media in many

1414
00:48:11,750 --> 00:48:09,839
cases because he brought his harvard you

1415
00:48:14,710 --> 00:48:11,760
know bona fides with him

1416
00:48:16,790 --> 00:48:14,720
and um you know he was such an exalted

1417
00:48:17,589 --> 00:48:16,800
figure so whatever he said you know made

1418
00:48:19,349 --> 00:48:17,599
news

1419
00:48:20,630 --> 00:48:19,359
plus as i said he's so good looking and

1420
00:48:22,790 --> 00:48:20,640
so charismatic

1421
00:48:25,030 --> 00:48:22,800
that he presented a wonderful picture of

1422
00:48:29,670 --> 00:48:25,040
the harvard psychiatrist you know

1423
00:48:33,030 --> 00:48:29,680
wading into this very difficult area

1424
00:48:35,190 --> 00:48:33,040
so the media treated him both ways

1425
00:48:37,270 --> 00:48:35,200
most famously in my book i talk about uh

1426
00:48:39,750 --> 00:48:37,280
how he was hoaxed by a woman

1427
00:48:41,430 --> 00:48:39,760
who pretended uh or said she pretended

1428
00:48:44,630 --> 00:48:41,440
to be an experiencer

1429
00:48:46,829 --> 00:48:44,640
told john mack a fantastic story about

1430
00:48:50,390 --> 00:48:46,839
being aboard a spaceship

1431
00:48:51,270 --> 00:48:50,400
with go into that in a bit of detail

1432
00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:51,280
because it's time

1433
00:48:55,510 --> 00:48:54,960
magazine it is sensational in a lot of

1434
00:48:57,670 --> 00:48:55,520
ways

1435
00:48:59,190 --> 00:48:57,680
and it also has you know a little bit of

1436
00:49:02,870 --> 00:48:59,200
this kind of

1437
00:49:05,829 --> 00:49:02,880
project mockingbird kind of hit piece

1438
00:49:07,670 --> 00:49:05,839
the guy aviation weekly i remember you

1439
00:49:08,309 --> 00:49:07,680
and whitley street were talking about

1440
00:49:15,510 --> 00:49:08,319
that

1441
00:49:18,390 --> 00:49:15,520
level as well beyond kind of just

1442
00:49:19,109 --> 00:49:18,400
uh the the snarkiness of the new york

1443
00:49:20,950 --> 00:49:19,119
times it's

1444
00:49:22,549 --> 00:49:20,960
it's it has yeah if you want to spin it

1445
00:49:24,710 --> 00:49:22,559
that way you could as well so

1446
00:49:26,150 --> 00:49:24,720
set to kind of tee that up what time

1447
00:49:27,910 --> 00:49:26,160
what year was it written

1448
00:49:29,829 --> 00:49:27,920
and then you actually know the guy who

1449
00:49:31,910 --> 00:49:29,839
writes it so you have an extra

1450
00:49:33,990 --> 00:49:31,920
inside uh inside talk about

1451
00:49:36,870 --> 00:49:34,000
synchronicity we can talk about that

1452
00:49:38,790 --> 00:49:36,880
alex because so many ways

1453
00:49:40,150 --> 00:49:38,800
in the course of this book my path

1454
00:49:43,589 --> 00:49:40,160
crossed with john mack

1455
00:49:44,150 --> 00:49:43,599
he was already dead but um with his

1456
00:49:46,390 --> 00:49:44,160
family

1457
00:49:48,390 --> 00:49:46,400
and with other figures so it turns out

1458
00:49:51,030 --> 00:49:48,400
that the guy who wrote this

1459
00:49:52,549 --> 00:49:51,040
hit piece uh for time magazine on john

1460
00:49:54,630 --> 00:49:52,559
mack was a guy i knew

1461
00:49:55,990 --> 00:49:54,640
a fellow correspondent in in vietnam

1462
00:49:58,069 --> 00:49:56,000
when i was there for the times he was

1463
00:49:59,910 --> 00:49:58,079
there for time magazine

1464
00:50:01,990 --> 00:49:59,920
jim wilworth and we were colleagues we

1465
00:50:03,829 --> 00:50:02,000
were friends so then he crops up

1466
00:50:05,430 --> 00:50:03,839
writing the story for time magazine and

1467
00:50:08,630 --> 00:50:05,440
this was the story

1468
00:50:12,790 --> 00:50:08,640
um there was a woman an experiencer who

1469
00:50:17,510 --> 00:50:12,800
came forward to john mack about 1990

1470
00:50:19,109 --> 00:50:17,520
i believe around that time maybe 93

1471
00:50:20,549 --> 00:50:19,119
and he was meeting with a lot of people

1472
00:50:22,069 --> 00:50:20,559
with strange stories i mean that's what

1473
00:50:22,470 --> 00:50:22,079
he wanted he was collecting as many of

1474
00:50:25,589 --> 00:50:22,480
these

1475
00:50:28,069 --> 00:50:25,599
uh experience of stories of alien

1476
00:50:29,430 --> 00:50:28,079
abductees as he could and he would

1477
00:50:32,069 --> 00:50:29,440
interview them at length and he put

1478
00:50:32,630 --> 00:50:32,079
13 of them in great detail in his book

1479
00:50:34,470 --> 00:50:32,640
anyway

1480
00:50:35,670 --> 00:50:34,480
this woman came to him and said she was

1481
00:50:38,309 --> 00:50:35,680
an abductee

1482
00:50:39,510 --> 00:50:38,319
and she remembered being on a spaceship

1483
00:50:44,950 --> 00:50:39,520
during the

1484
00:50:47,829 --> 00:50:44,960
cuban missile crisis in um 1962

1485
00:50:48,390 --> 00:50:47,839
um when we you know the u.s detected

1486
00:50:52,790 --> 00:50:48,400
missile

1487
00:50:54,710 --> 00:50:52,800
cuba and it was the closest world war

1488
00:50:55,190 --> 00:50:54,720
three ever came to you know wiping out

1489
00:50:59,829 --> 00:50:55,200
the

1490
00:51:01,990 --> 00:50:59,839
missile crisis she remembered being on a

1491
00:51:03,589 --> 00:51:02,000
spaceship with the soviet premier nikita

1492
00:51:05,829 --> 00:51:03,599
khrushchev and john f kennedy

1493
00:51:07,109 --> 00:51:05,839
and khrushchev sat in in her lap and was

1494
00:51:10,309 --> 00:51:07,119
crying

1495
00:51:12,470 --> 00:51:10,319
and and and and mac again sort of

1496
00:51:14,470 --> 00:51:12,480
naively was lapping this up i mean this

1497
00:51:16,150 --> 00:51:14,480
was an amazing story but it wasn't

1498
00:51:17,589 --> 00:51:16,160
that much crazier than the other stuff

1499
00:51:19,589 --> 00:51:17,599
he was right right

1500
00:51:20,950 --> 00:51:19,599
right so it you know it was not that

1501
00:51:24,630 --> 00:51:20,960
outlandish i mean it was

1502
00:51:27,349 --> 00:51:24,640
crazy now it sounds but anyway so

1503
00:51:27,990 --> 00:51:27,359
she tells them this story and and other

1504
00:51:31,430 --> 00:51:28,000
stories

1505
00:51:33,030 --> 00:51:31,440
and um she becomes part of his

1506
00:51:35,750 --> 00:51:33,040
experience at group

1507
00:51:37,270 --> 00:51:35,760
and then time magazine finds out about

1508
00:51:39,190 --> 00:51:37,280
her interviews her

1509
00:51:40,870 --> 00:51:39,200
and she tells time a very different

1510
00:51:42,390 --> 00:51:40,880
story that she made up the whole

1511
00:51:43,829 --> 00:51:42,400
experience of things she was trying to

1512
00:51:46,549 --> 00:51:43,839
expose john mack

1513
00:51:47,829 --> 00:51:46,559
as a charlatan and she was not really an

1514
00:51:50,230 --> 00:51:47,839
experiencer

1515
00:51:52,390 --> 00:51:50,240
and she hoaxed him with a story about

1516
00:51:55,430 --> 00:51:52,400
kennedy and khrushchev on the spaceship

1517
00:51:57,670 --> 00:51:55,440
and he you know ate it up and time

1518
00:51:58,390 --> 00:51:57,680
magazine used that as a symbol of why

1519
00:52:01,670 --> 00:51:58,400
john mack

1520
00:52:04,870 --> 00:52:01,680
was you know grossly naive

1521
00:52:05,750 --> 00:52:04,880
and you know should not be a harvard

1522
00:52:07,430 --> 00:52:05,760
professor and

1523
00:52:14,190 --> 00:52:07,440
question his credentials and all anyway

1524
00:52:19,190 --> 00:52:17,270
so john mc later determined when this

1525
00:52:21,750 --> 00:52:19,200
when this came out in time magazine

1526
00:52:22,790 --> 00:52:21,760
and very very damaging to him as that he

1527
00:52:25,349 --> 00:52:22,800
was hoaxed

1528
00:52:27,270 --> 00:52:25,359
um he countered that he thought she was

1529
00:52:28,870 --> 00:52:27,280
actually an experiencer and he provided

1530
00:52:30,069 --> 00:52:28,880
the reasons from interviews with her and

1531
00:52:31,990 --> 00:52:30,079
interviews she gave

1532
00:52:33,109 --> 00:52:32,000
before she contacted john mack with

1533
00:52:35,430 --> 00:52:33,119
whitley strieber

1534
00:52:37,349 --> 00:52:35,440
and others that indicated to him rather

1535
00:52:39,829 --> 00:52:37,359
convincingly i thought in the book

1536
00:52:41,510 --> 00:52:39,839
um that she really was an experiencer

1537
00:52:42,470 --> 00:52:41,520
and that she had some acts to grind

1538
00:52:45,109 --> 00:52:42,480
against mac

1539
00:52:46,309 --> 00:52:45,119
and her husband worked for us aviation

1540
00:52:48,790 --> 00:52:46,319
weekly

1541
00:52:49,750 --> 00:52:48,800
why did you and whitley think that that

1542
00:52:51,670 --> 00:52:49,760
connection with

1543
00:52:53,589 --> 00:52:51,680
a without getting into too much detail

1544
00:52:55,910 --> 00:52:53,599
because we'll never know the answer

1545
00:52:58,150 --> 00:52:55,920
but there is this ongoing uh

1546
00:53:00,630 --> 00:52:58,160
misinformation disinformation

1547
00:53:02,390 --> 00:53:00,640
campaign by the united states government

1548
00:53:03,349 --> 00:53:02,400
which is just well established as part

1549
00:53:06,390 --> 00:53:03,359
of your whole

1550
00:53:09,510 --> 00:53:06,400
rollout in you know december 2017

1551
00:53:09,510 --> 00:53:09,990
with leslie i mean they've denied this

1552
00:53:14,950 --> 00:53:13,670
up and down for 60 years just vigorously

1553
00:53:17,030 --> 00:53:14,960
and vigorously fought

1554
00:53:18,390 --> 00:53:17,040
anyone who said it and one of their

1555
00:53:20,710 --> 00:53:18,400
mouthpieces was

1556
00:53:22,069 --> 00:53:20,720
this aviation weekly where they would

1557
00:53:24,630 --> 00:53:22,079
kind of disseminate this

1558
00:53:26,790 --> 00:53:24,640
this can't possibly be true you would be

1559
00:53:29,910 --> 00:53:26,800
a fool to believe any of this stuff

1560
00:53:32,150 --> 00:53:29,920
just if you would right i mean i i never

1561
00:53:34,150 --> 00:53:32,160
i i didn't look that deeply into his uh

1562
00:53:34,710 --> 00:53:34,160
con his role in this affair her

1563
00:53:37,990 --> 00:53:34,720
husband's

1564
00:53:40,309 --> 00:53:38,000
uh uh role in this but it's true that

1565
00:53:42,230 --> 00:53:40,319
aviation weekly was part of the defense

1566
00:53:43,750 --> 00:53:42,240
you know press and it took a lot of

1567
00:53:46,470 --> 00:53:43,760
leaks from the federal government

1568
00:53:47,589 --> 00:53:46,480
and was quite negative on the reality of

1569
00:53:51,270 --> 00:53:47,599
ufos

1570
00:53:53,510 --> 00:53:51,280
um but um there was a very telling

1571
00:53:56,630 --> 00:53:53,520
incident i i mentioned in my book

1572
00:53:58,230 --> 00:53:56,640
where sometime after this woman donna

1573
00:54:02,390 --> 00:53:58,240
bassett rice hoaxed

1574
00:54:05,030 --> 00:54:02,400
john mack or didn't hoax him

1575
00:54:07,030 --> 00:54:05,040
but whatever after this affair came out

1576
00:54:08,950 --> 00:54:07,040
where one of john mack's

1577
00:54:10,710 --> 00:54:08,960
confidants approached her at a meeting

1578
00:54:12,710 --> 00:54:10,720
and said why did you do this

1579
00:54:14,150 --> 00:54:12,720
you know why are you so bent on

1580
00:54:16,309 --> 00:54:14,160
destroying john mack

1581
00:54:18,549 --> 00:54:16,319
and she said according to this friend

1582
00:54:21,430 --> 00:54:18,559
who wrote a memo on it

1583
00:54:23,270 --> 00:54:21,440
donna said because that's how hitler

1584
00:54:25,270 --> 00:54:23,280
started

1585
00:54:27,589 --> 00:54:25,280
which made absolutely no sense to

1586
00:54:29,750 --> 00:54:27,599
anybody i mean comparing john mack to

1587
00:54:31,430 --> 00:54:29,760
hitler i mean maybe as a cult leader is

1588
00:54:34,710 --> 00:54:31,440
it was her point or whatever

1589
00:54:36,950 --> 00:54:34,720
but it was so outlandish um

1590
00:54:37,750 --> 00:54:36,960
and uh there were other aspects of this

1591
00:54:40,549 --> 00:54:37,760
case that

1592
00:54:41,589 --> 00:54:40,559
you know got really tangled and

1593
00:54:43,750 --> 00:54:41,599
entangled

1594
00:54:45,430 --> 00:54:43,760
but the basic thing is it was a low

1595
00:54:46,789 --> 00:54:45,440
point in john mack's career it hurt him

1596
00:54:49,190 --> 00:54:46,799
terribly because

1597
00:54:50,150 --> 00:54:49,200
it fed into misconceptions of people

1598
00:54:53,670 --> 00:54:50,160
that he was

1599
00:54:54,390 --> 00:54:53,680
pursuing a a fraudulent agenda which he

1600
00:54:56,470 --> 00:54:54,400
was not

1601
00:54:58,150 --> 00:54:56,480
there was there was ambiguities to it

1602
00:54:59,510 --> 00:54:58,160
but it was it was always straightforward

1603
00:55:02,390 --> 00:54:59,520
and honest he never

1604
00:55:04,150 --> 00:55:02,400
lied about that he never uh you know hid

1605
00:55:05,430 --> 00:55:04,160
anything he found in order to make it

1606
00:55:07,349 --> 00:55:05,440
come out differently

1607
00:55:09,109 --> 00:55:07,359
as a matter of fact if you read his his

1608
00:55:11,589 --> 00:55:09,119
first book which was uh

1609
00:55:13,750 --> 00:55:11,599
abduction human encounters with aliens

1610
00:55:16,230 --> 00:55:13,760
which came out in 1994

1611
00:55:17,190 --> 00:55:16,240
it's 13 incredibly detailed case

1612
00:55:19,670 --> 00:55:17,200
histories

1613
00:55:20,710 --> 00:55:19,680
uh he doesn't use the actual names of

1614
00:55:22,549 --> 00:55:20,720
the people but

1615
00:55:23,829 --> 00:55:22,559
some of them came out later under their

1616
00:55:28,150 --> 00:55:23,839
real identity so i

1617
00:55:30,470 --> 00:55:28,160
i knew who some of them were for sure

1618
00:55:32,230 --> 00:55:30,480
but you read that book and you are

1619
00:55:34,870 --> 00:55:32,240
amazed at the thoroughness

1620
00:55:35,750 --> 00:55:34,880
of his research and how he went into

1621
00:55:37,910 --> 00:55:35,760
these cases

1622
00:55:40,430 --> 00:55:37,920
and looked for alternate explanations

1623
00:55:43,990 --> 00:55:40,440
and dissected the cases i mean

1624
00:55:46,230 --> 00:55:44,000
extraordinary work um and uh and

1625
00:55:47,990 --> 00:55:46,240
the book was a bestseller i mean it

1626
00:55:52,150 --> 00:55:48,000
deserved it it was it was it was

1627
00:55:55,750 --> 00:55:52,160
rightly sensational ralph how do things

1628
00:55:57,349 --> 00:55:55,760
uh end for john i mean both

1629
00:55:59,670 --> 00:55:57,359
you know at the very end of his life but

1630
00:56:00,870 --> 00:55:59,680
also it's the whole second book is so

1631
00:56:03,750 --> 00:56:00,880
interesting

1632
00:56:05,109 --> 00:56:03,760
from uh from so many angles from he

1633
00:56:08,309 --> 00:56:05,119
changes his position

1634
00:56:10,630 --> 00:56:08,319
but it's also interesting kind of as a

1635
00:56:12,470 --> 00:56:10,640
as you explore from a kind of social

1636
00:56:13,670 --> 00:56:12,480
media that we're all familiar with it's

1637
00:56:15,349 --> 00:56:13,680
like he's old news

1638
00:56:17,589 --> 00:56:15,359
he comes out with what he thinks is

1639
00:56:18,630 --> 00:56:17,599
going to be the bombshell second book

1640
00:56:20,789 --> 00:56:18,640
and everyone's like

1641
00:56:22,150 --> 00:56:20,799
oh john mack you know forget him we're

1642
00:56:24,630 --> 00:56:22,160
on to the next thing

1643
00:56:25,430 --> 00:56:24,640
yeah and also so maybe just that well

1644
00:56:28,950 --> 00:56:25,440
how's that

1645
00:56:30,710 --> 00:56:28,960
yeah it's kind of sad so after um

1646
00:56:32,390 --> 00:56:30,720
when an abduction came out his first

1647
00:56:35,349 --> 00:56:32,400
book which was a bestseller

1648
00:56:36,230 --> 00:56:35,359
uh people with critics picked it apart

1649
00:56:38,069 --> 00:56:36,240
um

1650
00:56:39,270 --> 00:56:38,079
and said oh he should have related it

1651
00:56:43,349 --> 00:56:39,280
more to

1652
00:56:43,750 --> 00:56:43,359
um you know ancient animals or show you

1653
00:56:47,109 --> 00:56:43,760
know

1654
00:56:48,630 --> 00:56:47,119
mentioning ufos and other cultures and

1655
00:56:50,549 --> 00:56:48,640
irish fairy stories he should have put

1656
00:56:52,870 --> 00:56:50,559
it in a much more of a context

1657
00:56:53,750 --> 00:56:52,880
he was too credulous you know they had

1658
00:56:57,190 --> 00:56:53,760
everybody had

1659
00:56:58,870 --> 00:56:57,200
uh a reason to to uh you know pick it

1660
00:57:00,630 --> 00:56:58,880
apart although many

1661
00:57:02,390 --> 00:57:00,640
critics really liked the book i mean it

1662
00:57:03,109 --> 00:57:02,400
got very good reviews and negative

1663
00:57:05,349 --> 00:57:03,119
reviews

1664
00:57:06,630 --> 00:57:05,359
together but they pointed out certain

1665
00:57:08,630 --> 00:57:06,640
shortcomings in the book

1666
00:57:10,230 --> 00:57:08,640
that john mack did not put it in enough

1667
00:57:12,230 --> 00:57:10,240
of a context

1668
00:57:14,789 --> 00:57:12,240
so he when he wrote a second book called

1669
00:57:17,670 --> 00:57:14,799
passport to the cosmos five years later

1670
00:57:18,710 --> 00:57:17,680
he took steps to address those

1671
00:57:21,750 --> 00:57:18,720
criticisms

1672
00:57:23,670 --> 00:57:21,760
he very deliberately put the story into

1673
00:57:25,270 --> 00:57:23,680
more context he softens some of his

1674
00:57:27,589 --> 00:57:25,280
certainties that he put in the first

1675
00:57:30,230 --> 00:57:27,599
book about abduction being real

1676
00:57:32,789 --> 00:57:30,240
happening in this reality uh it could be

1677
00:57:35,030 --> 00:57:32,799
in a more liminal reality etc

1678
00:57:36,309 --> 00:57:35,040
and he said boy this book is really

1679
00:57:39,510 --> 00:57:36,319
going to do it

1680
00:57:42,870 --> 00:57:39,520
the second book so he put that out and

1681
00:57:44,309 --> 00:57:42,880
big silence big yawn uh maybe history

1682
00:57:47,670 --> 00:57:44,319
had passed him by

1683
00:57:51,270 --> 00:57:47,680
um maybe you know as you said that media

1684
00:57:55,990 --> 00:57:54,309
the mia had moved on so

1685
00:57:57,510 --> 00:57:56,000
you know he wasn't the same big news he

1686
00:57:59,270 --> 00:57:57,520
was five years earlier

1687
00:58:00,950 --> 00:57:59,280
for whatever reason it didn't and he was

1688
00:58:02,710 --> 00:58:00,960
disappointed he thought this was the

1689
00:58:04,470 --> 00:58:02,720
book that would establish him now

1690
00:58:06,390 --> 00:58:04,480
it's a better book than the first book

1691
00:58:07,670 --> 00:58:06,400
it has the nuances i didn't do the first

1692
00:58:09,829 --> 00:58:07,680
time around

1693
00:58:11,589 --> 00:58:09,839
now actually the second book is what

1694
00:58:13,430 --> 00:58:11,599
connected me to john mack

1695
00:58:15,349 --> 00:58:13,440
because i came across that when i was a

1696
00:58:17,589 --> 00:58:15,359
correspondent in texas

1697
00:58:18,710 --> 00:58:17,599
for the new york times and i you know i

1698
00:58:21,670 --> 00:58:18,720
found this book

1699
00:58:23,829 --> 00:58:21,680
used paperback somewhere and i said wow

1700
00:58:27,030 --> 00:58:23,839
you know harvard psychiatrist who's

1701
00:58:28,710 --> 00:58:27,040
writing about alien beings and uh i said

1702
00:58:31,349 --> 00:58:28,720
i got to interview this guy

1703
00:58:32,710 --> 00:58:31,359
now i was naive because he was already

1704
00:58:34,950 --> 00:58:32,720
famous

1705
00:58:35,990 --> 00:58:34,960
he'd been on oprah he'd been you know a

1706
00:58:37,349 --> 00:58:36,000
bestseller with his first

1707
00:58:39,190 --> 00:58:37,359
book i had written up in the new york

1708
00:58:41,109 --> 00:58:39,200
times i didn't know i didn't

1709
00:58:42,950 --> 00:58:41,119
even know his name so i said i'm going

1710
00:58:44,309 --> 00:58:42,960
to give him a call maybe i can interview

1711
00:58:45,910 --> 00:58:44,319
him

1712
00:58:48,150 --> 00:58:45,920
and then i picked up the paper one day

1713
00:58:51,190 --> 00:58:48,160
and i saw he'd been run over in london

1714
00:58:54,069 --> 00:58:51,200
by a drunk driver he was dead um

1715
00:58:55,349 --> 00:58:54,079
and it was so weird talk a little bit

1716
00:58:58,390 --> 00:58:55,359
about

1717
00:59:01,190 --> 00:58:58,400
that last year or so of his life

1718
00:59:02,950 --> 00:59:01,200
you explore it beautifully in the book i

1719
00:59:03,829 --> 00:59:02,960
just don't know how you put all this

1720
00:59:06,150 --> 00:59:03,839
together because it

1721
00:59:07,750 --> 00:59:06,160
really feels like you were right there

1722
00:59:09,109 --> 00:59:07,760
which is a great feeling for someone

1723
00:59:11,589 --> 00:59:09,119
who's reading the book

1724
00:59:13,030 --> 00:59:11,599
but he's interested in crop circles he

1725
00:59:14,950 --> 00:59:13,040
goes to the uk

1726
00:59:16,390 --> 00:59:14,960
he's kind of has this relationship thing

1727
00:59:18,309 --> 00:59:16,400
going on in his personal life

1728
00:59:19,910 --> 00:59:18,319
but he's moved on i guess is one of the

1729
00:59:20,789 --> 00:59:19,920
things i said he's not somebody who's

1730
00:59:22,230 --> 00:59:20,799
sitting there

1731
00:59:24,549 --> 00:59:22,240
singing at home kind of waiting for the

1732
00:59:26,789 --> 00:59:24,559
phone to ring that's not the guy

1733
00:59:28,150 --> 00:59:26,799
he is and that's not who he is in this

1734
00:59:31,430 --> 00:59:28,160
point and then also

1735
00:59:31,990 --> 00:59:31,440
any rumors that you know you don't

1736
00:59:33,589 --> 00:59:32,000
explicitly

1737
00:59:35,670 --> 00:59:33,599
say this but any rumors that there's any

1738
00:59:37,430 --> 00:59:35,680
foul play just look like they just don't

1739
00:59:39,990 --> 00:59:37,440
have any merit to me but

1740
00:59:41,670 --> 00:59:40,000
talk about that last year uh okay so the

1741
00:59:44,390 --> 00:59:41,680
last year was life he was

1742
00:59:45,510 --> 00:59:44,400
really exploring uh other aspects of the

1743
00:59:47,910 --> 00:59:45,520
paranormal

1744
00:59:50,069 --> 00:59:47,920
uh he had branched out he realized i'm

1745
00:59:52,789 --> 00:59:50,079
oversimplifying now but basically

1746
00:59:54,630 --> 00:59:52,799
he realized that his focus on alien

1747
00:59:56,789 --> 00:59:54,640
abduction was too

1748
00:59:58,870 --> 00:59:56,799
too narrow and that there were whole

1749
01:00:00,150 --> 00:59:58,880
there's a whole other world of anomalous

1750
01:00:01,990 --> 01:00:00,160
experience that

1751
01:00:03,589 --> 01:00:02,000
may be tied into it that he had a look

1752
01:00:05,589 --> 01:00:03,599
into so um

1753
01:00:06,789 --> 01:00:05,599
he was reading books about you know the

1754
01:00:10,069 --> 01:00:06,799
flight of 9 11

1755
01:00:11,910 --> 01:00:10,079
uh 411 i think was at 411

1756
01:00:13,510 --> 01:00:11,920
about a mysterious flight that crashed

1757
01:00:16,549 --> 01:00:13,520
and the people came back

1758
01:00:17,910 --> 01:00:16,559
the did the dead later reappeared and he

1759
01:00:20,710 --> 01:00:17,920
read books about the conspiracy

1760
01:00:22,870 --> 01:00:20,720
so-called conspiracy behind 911

1761
01:00:23,829 --> 01:00:22,880
and he wrote he got interested in a rock

1762
01:00:26,069 --> 01:00:23,839
called the

1763
01:00:29,030 --> 01:00:26,079
moldovite which might have been on the

1764
01:00:32,309 --> 01:00:29,040
holy grail that has

1765
01:00:33,349 --> 01:00:32,319
magical properties that allows the rock

1766
01:00:35,270 --> 01:00:33,359
to migrate

1767
01:00:36,870 --> 01:00:35,280
so he heard so he was interested in all

1768
01:00:37,990 --> 01:00:36,880
these things and crop circles so he went

1769
01:00:40,789 --> 01:00:38,000
to london

1770
01:00:42,390 --> 01:00:40,799
and he went to england to the place

1771
01:00:44,150 --> 01:00:42,400
where the crop circles are

1772
01:00:46,150 --> 01:00:44,160
very prevalent and he laid down in the

1773
01:00:46,710 --> 01:00:46,160
field and he soaked up the energy and he

1774
01:00:48,870 --> 01:00:46,720
said

1775
01:00:50,549 --> 01:00:48,880
there's no way this could be man-made

1776
01:00:53,430 --> 01:00:50,559
you know this has to be

1777
01:00:56,789 --> 01:00:53,440
you know supernatural so he he really

1778
01:00:59,829 --> 01:00:56,799
widened his perspective and

1779
01:01:02,950 --> 01:00:59,839
and he to the point where um

1780
01:01:04,870 --> 01:01:02,960
he was really got interested in in life

1781
01:01:06,710 --> 01:01:04,880
after death of survival of consciousness

1782
01:01:09,510 --> 01:01:06,720
what happens after we die does the

1783
01:01:10,069 --> 01:01:09,520
does bodily death mean the complete end

1784
01:01:13,109 --> 01:01:10,079
of the

1785
01:01:15,030 --> 01:01:13,119
mind or the

1786
01:01:17,190 --> 01:01:15,040
it's the end of the brain but does the

1787
01:01:18,950 --> 01:01:17,200
mind so-called continue

1788
01:01:21,030 --> 01:01:18,960
and does it connect with other parts of

1789
01:01:22,710 --> 01:01:21,040
the cosmos and

1790
01:01:24,789 --> 01:01:22,720
all these questions sort of haunted him

1791
01:01:28,630 --> 01:01:24,799
and and like lawrence

1792
01:01:30,549 --> 01:01:28,640
uh his idol um he thought he

1793
01:01:31,990 --> 01:01:30,559
he was he was getting tired of life i

1794
01:01:34,549 --> 01:01:32,000
mean uh

1795
01:01:35,349 --> 01:01:34,559
associates noticed that he was weary as

1796
01:01:37,270 --> 01:01:35,359
he as

1797
01:01:38,630 --> 01:01:37,280
as john mack wrote about lawrence and it

1798
01:01:40,549 --> 01:01:38,640
applied to him as well

1799
01:01:42,789 --> 01:01:40,559
uh his death was an accident but it

1800
01:01:45,270 --> 01:01:42,799
wasn't entirely accidental

1801
01:01:47,030 --> 01:01:45,280
so you know he was he was getting weary

1802
01:01:48,710 --> 01:01:47,040
he was interested in

1803
01:01:50,390 --> 01:01:48,720
what would happen to him after he died

1804
01:01:52,870 --> 01:01:50,400
he told friends maybe i can do better

1805
01:01:57,510 --> 01:01:52,880
work from the other side

1806
01:02:00,710 --> 01:01:59,190
so he was he was ready for another

1807
01:02:02,789 --> 01:02:00,720
experience you could say

1808
01:02:04,069 --> 01:02:02,799
uh i'm not saying he committed suicide

1809
01:02:05,589 --> 01:02:04,079
when he stepped out of that you know

1810
01:02:06,630 --> 01:02:05,599
underground station in london and looked

1811
01:02:09,670 --> 01:02:06,640
the wrong way

1812
01:02:12,950 --> 01:02:09,680
and that would be a mistake um but

1813
01:02:13,510 --> 01:02:12,960
he was tired enough and was in cautious

1814
01:02:15,589 --> 01:02:13,520
enough

1815
01:02:16,710 --> 01:02:15,599
to look to look the wrong way and got

1816
01:02:19,910 --> 01:02:16,720
mowed down

1817
01:02:20,789 --> 01:02:19,920
now immediately at the time this was in

1818
01:02:24,309 --> 01:02:20,799
um

1819
01:02:27,270 --> 01:02:24,319
2004 just before his 75th birthday

1820
01:02:28,630 --> 01:02:27,280
um and just before i picked up his book

1821
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:28,640
where i learned about him

1822
01:02:32,630 --> 01:02:30,810
but um

1823
01:02:35,190 --> 01:02:32,640
[Music]

1824
01:02:36,069 --> 01:02:35,200
there were rumors at the time he was uh

1825
01:02:38,789 --> 01:02:36,079
run down

1826
01:02:39,829 --> 01:02:38,799
that it was an assassination he was so

1827
01:02:41,910 --> 01:02:39,839
prominent

1828
01:02:43,109 --> 01:02:41,920
he was such a thought in the side of

1829
01:02:44,549 --> 01:02:43,119
harvard and

1830
01:02:46,470 --> 01:02:44,559
uh you know that there were a lot of

1831
01:02:48,390 --> 01:02:46,480
people who wanted him dead

1832
01:02:51,349 --> 01:02:48,400
things like that but i got the police

1833
01:02:53,570 --> 01:02:51,359
reports i had access to all his records

1834
01:02:54,950 --> 01:02:53,580
all the official records um

1835
01:02:57,990 --> 01:02:54,960
[Music]

1836
01:02:58,950 --> 01:02:58,000
in his entire archive his his journals

1837
01:03:00,390 --> 01:02:58,960
that he kept

1838
01:03:02,309 --> 01:03:00,400
and all the information you know

1839
01:03:04,069 --> 01:03:02,319
surrounding his life

1840
01:03:10,150 --> 01:03:04,079
that i had complete access to thanks to

1841
01:03:17,029 --> 01:03:13,750
so i am satisfied 100 that it was

1842
01:03:18,710 --> 01:03:17,039
an accident uh the guy had too much to

1843
01:03:19,990 --> 01:03:18,720
drink we know who he was he's in the

1844
01:03:23,910 --> 01:03:20,000
police reports

1845
01:03:27,589 --> 01:03:23,920
um etc now at the end of the book

1846
01:03:31,750 --> 01:03:27,599
i talk about him appearing to

1847
01:03:34,150 --> 01:03:31,760
friends and associates uh after he died

1848
01:03:35,270 --> 01:03:34,160
and i say i'm not investing this with

1849
01:03:37,910 --> 01:03:35,280
the same

1850
01:03:39,029 --> 01:03:37,920
uh credibility that i i give to the rest

1851
01:03:41,349 --> 01:03:39,039
of the book uh

1852
01:03:42,549 --> 01:03:41,359
but they're stories that people tell and

1853
01:03:44,870 --> 01:03:42,559
i think they should be part of the

1854
01:03:47,430 --> 01:03:44,880
record because uh

1855
01:03:49,270 --> 01:03:47,440
it's it's just you know what people said

1856
01:03:50,470 --> 01:03:49,280
happened after he died

1857
01:03:53,029 --> 01:03:50,480
and there were you know number of

1858
01:03:56,230 --> 01:03:53,039
stories of him appearing um

1859
01:03:57,029 --> 01:03:56,240
with various messages uh that i found

1860
01:04:00,470 --> 01:03:57,039
interesting

1861
01:04:03,349 --> 01:04:00,480
again proof of an afterlife not really

1862
01:04:04,230 --> 01:04:03,359
but um they're hard to shake off they're

1863
01:04:06,309 --> 01:04:04,240
just stories

1864
01:04:07,589 --> 01:04:06,319
but they're they're anecdotal i thought

1865
01:04:07,910 --> 01:04:07,599
those stories at the end of the book in

1866
01:04:13,829 --> 01:04:07,920
the

1867
01:04:17,190 --> 01:04:13,839
going to maybe return to what i said

1868
01:04:18,549 --> 01:04:17,200
before boy i i really feel personally

1869
01:04:21,109 --> 01:04:18,559
that we have to kind of shift

1870
01:04:21,910 --> 01:04:21,119
our language about that it's like it's

1871
01:04:25,270 --> 01:04:21,920
not proof

1872
01:04:29,109 --> 01:04:25,280
it's like if if this whole

1873
01:04:30,789 --> 01:04:29,119
body of information says anything to us

1874
01:04:33,109 --> 01:04:30,799
it says that we have to really

1875
01:04:34,710 --> 01:04:33,119
re-understand what we mean by proof and

1876
01:04:35,910 --> 01:04:34,720
i always kind of think of it in terms of

1877
01:04:37,349 --> 01:04:35,920
the burden of proof

1878
01:04:40,069 --> 01:04:37,359
and it's like where does the burden of

1879
01:04:41,990 --> 01:04:40,079
proof shift when does it shift and in

1880
01:04:44,470 --> 01:04:42,000
this case like after death communication

1881
01:04:46,309 --> 01:04:44,480
to me the burden has clearly shifted if

1882
01:04:47,190 --> 01:04:46,319
you don't believe in after death

1883
01:04:49,430 --> 01:04:47,200
communication

1884
01:04:50,390 --> 01:04:49,440
then the burden of proof is on you to

1885
01:04:51,990 --> 01:04:50,400
show

1886
01:04:53,670 --> 01:04:52,000
the thousands and thousands of

1887
01:04:53,990 --> 01:04:53,680
verifiable accounts from all sorts of

1888
01:04:55,990 --> 01:04:54,000
different

1889
01:04:57,349 --> 01:04:56,000
sources from the best medical evidence

1890
01:05:00,470 --> 01:04:57,359
we can find from

1891
01:05:01,430 --> 01:05:00,480
leslie's uh excellent series on netflix

1892
01:05:03,270 --> 01:05:01,440
and all the rest of it

1893
01:05:04,630 --> 01:05:03,280
the burden of proof is really on someone

1894
01:05:07,349 --> 01:05:04,640
else to show that that

1895
01:05:10,069 --> 01:05:07,359
is somehow shouldn't be taken seriously

1896
01:05:12,390 --> 01:05:10,079
i'd even say that the same is true with

1897
01:05:14,309 --> 01:05:12,400
abduction you know if if someone wants

1898
01:05:17,109 --> 01:05:14,319
to say

1899
01:05:18,630 --> 01:05:17,119
which you raise very very valid

1900
01:05:20,069 --> 01:05:18,640
questions and i love the way that you

1901
01:05:21,990 --> 01:05:20,079
frame it up you know that

1902
01:05:23,670 --> 01:05:22,000
do we have to consider interdimensional

1903
01:05:24,470 --> 01:05:23,680
do we have to consider whatever that

1904
01:05:25,910 --> 01:05:24,480
means we don't need

1905
01:05:27,510 --> 01:05:25,920
when we say interdimensional you know

1906
01:05:28,870 --> 01:05:27,520
it's like oh that solves it we have no

1907
01:05:30,950 --> 01:05:28,880
idea what that means

1908
01:05:32,150 --> 01:05:30,960
absolutely right or other realms or

1909
01:05:34,630 --> 01:05:32,160
fairies but

1910
01:05:35,270 --> 01:05:34,640
it would seem to me that that what john

1911
01:05:37,510 --> 01:05:35,280
mack

1912
01:05:38,549 --> 01:05:37,520
has done along with a bunch of other

1913
01:05:40,870 --> 01:05:38,559
people has

1914
01:05:42,390 --> 01:05:40,880
shifted the burden of proof to someone

1915
01:05:45,029 --> 01:05:42,400
else to say

1916
01:05:45,670 --> 01:05:45,039
okay these experiences that people are

1917
01:05:48,069 --> 01:05:45,680
having

1918
01:05:50,150 --> 01:05:48,079
are not in the norm the way that we'd

1919
01:05:52,710 --> 01:05:50,160
normally talk about them real because

1920
01:05:53,349 --> 01:05:52,720
my read of it is they are real we just

1921
01:05:55,910 --> 01:05:53,359
don't

1922
01:05:57,430 --> 01:05:55,920
know what real is anymore what are your

1923
01:05:58,950 --> 01:05:57,440
thoughts absolutely

1924
01:06:00,789 --> 01:05:58,960
you could not i could not have said it

1925
01:06:02,309 --> 01:06:00,799
better you're absolutely right that it

1926
01:06:05,029 --> 01:06:02,319
shifted the burden of proof

1927
01:06:05,750 --> 01:06:05,039
now john often said and this is in the

1928
01:06:08,789 --> 01:06:05,760
book

1929
01:06:11,430 --> 01:06:08,799
that um um

1930
01:06:12,710 --> 01:06:11,440
if anyone has a better explanation i'm

1931
01:06:14,789 --> 01:06:12,720
willing to hear it

1932
01:06:16,710 --> 01:06:14,799
uh he said it can't be it's not mental

1933
01:06:17,349 --> 01:06:16,720
illness you know i i say that in the

1934
01:06:20,069 --> 01:06:17,359
book that

1935
01:06:21,910 --> 01:06:20,079
i have at least ruled out what it isn't

1936
01:06:23,430 --> 01:06:21,920
what the phenomenon isn't so it isn't

1937
01:06:24,309 --> 01:06:23,440
according to john mack i mean i didn't

1938
01:06:26,309 --> 01:06:24,319
do my own

1939
01:06:28,630 --> 01:06:26,319
investigation he's a psychiatrist but i

1940
01:06:30,069 --> 01:06:28,640
looked over his shoulder as he did his

1941
01:06:33,029 --> 01:06:30,079
you know his experiments and his

1942
01:06:34,870 --> 01:06:33,039
research so it's not mental illness

1943
01:06:36,710 --> 01:06:34,880
it's not a mass delusion because these

1944
01:06:38,630 --> 01:06:36,720
people don't get together

1945
01:06:40,390 --> 01:06:38,640
it's not publicity seeking because they

1946
01:06:41,190 --> 01:06:40,400
shy away from publicity they don't want

1947
01:06:43,190 --> 01:06:41,200
to be known

1948
01:06:45,029 --> 01:06:43,200
they're questioning they wish it wasn't

1949
01:06:47,430 --> 01:06:45,039
true

1950
01:06:48,150 --> 01:06:47,440
um it's not books they've read or movies

1951
01:06:49,829 --> 01:06:48,160
they've seen because

1952
01:06:51,910 --> 01:06:49,839
kids two years old tell these same

1953
01:06:53,430 --> 01:06:51,920
stories so he's eliminated all these

1954
01:06:56,630 --> 01:06:53,440
other things that it's not

1955
01:06:57,910 --> 01:06:56,640
so then he says okay so as far as i know

1956
01:07:02,309 --> 01:06:57,920
these people

1957
01:07:04,230 --> 01:07:02,319
other than what they said

1958
01:07:05,750 --> 01:07:04,240
because i have no other explanation if

1959
01:07:07,829 --> 01:07:05,760
you have a good explanation

1960
01:07:10,470 --> 01:07:07,839
i want to hear it so i start the book

1961
01:07:14,630 --> 01:07:10,480
with this conference at mit

1962
01:07:16,950 --> 01:07:14,640
in 1992 that drew atomic physicists and

1963
01:07:19,430 --> 01:07:16,960
theologians and folklorists and

1964
01:07:21,270 --> 01:07:19,440
psychologists and psychiatrists experts

1965
01:07:24,549 --> 01:07:21,280
in in their fields who all came to

1966
01:07:26,150 --> 01:07:24,559
mit uh to wrestle with the

1967
01:07:27,990 --> 01:07:26,160
story of alien abduction you know what

1968
01:07:30,230 --> 01:07:28,000
this could be and everybody had

1969
01:07:32,390 --> 01:07:30,240
their you know way of looking at it and

1970
01:07:35,589 --> 01:07:32,400
at the end of course they didn't solve

1971
01:07:37,750 --> 01:07:35,599
the mystery um but they all came away

1972
01:07:39,029 --> 01:07:37,760
saying that everything we have brought

1973
01:07:42,630 --> 01:07:39,039
to it

1974
01:07:43,109 --> 01:07:42,640
doesn't explain what happened to these

1975
01:07:44,549 --> 01:07:43,119
people

1976
01:07:46,230 --> 01:07:44,559
so we're left with the mystery but at

1977
01:07:48,069 --> 01:07:46,240
least we know what it isn't

1978
01:07:49,510 --> 01:07:48,079
and it's not any of these other you know

1979
01:07:50,950 --> 01:07:49,520
it's sleep paralysis

1980
01:07:53,349 --> 01:07:50,960
oh yeah but it doesn't always happen at

1981
01:07:56,390 --> 01:07:53,359
night oh yeah i forgot about that

1982
01:07:57,750 --> 01:07:56,400
um so uh you know one by one they sort

1983
01:08:00,309 --> 01:07:57,760
of attack these things and i

1984
01:08:01,190 --> 01:08:00,319
i gotta say alex that if the so-called

1985
01:08:03,190 --> 01:08:01,200
skeptics

1986
01:08:05,109 --> 01:08:03,200
and i don't mean skeptical i mean the

1987
01:08:07,589 --> 01:08:05,119
skeptics and the debunkers

1988
01:08:08,390 --> 01:08:07,599
um are so intent on knocking this stuff

1989
01:08:10,870 --> 01:08:08,400
down as

1990
01:08:12,710 --> 01:08:10,880
myth and you know fabrication if they

1991
01:08:15,109 --> 01:08:12,720
would do some of the research

1992
01:08:17,669 --> 01:08:15,119
and read this material that's available

1993
01:08:20,550 --> 01:08:17,679
at the mit conference put out a thick

1994
01:08:22,070 --> 01:08:20,560
volume of transcripts there's a lot of

1995
01:08:26,149 --> 01:08:22,080
literature out there

1996
01:08:28,070 --> 01:08:26,159
of accounts not only by by people

1997
01:08:29,669 --> 01:08:28,080
uh the experiences themselves which are

1998
01:08:31,829 --> 01:08:29,679
anecdotal but

1999
01:08:33,669 --> 01:08:31,839
scientists and and psychologists

2000
01:08:35,510 --> 01:08:33,679
psychiatrists who have studied this

2001
01:08:37,749 --> 01:08:35,520
if they if these so-called skeptics

2002
01:08:40,390 --> 01:08:37,759
would read that and then say

2003
01:08:41,349 --> 01:08:40,400
okay but and then have an argument you

2004
01:08:43,510 --> 01:08:41,359
know why this is

2005
01:08:44,789 --> 01:08:43,520
not true that's not true but just to say

2006
01:08:46,550 --> 01:08:44,799
ah this is crazy stuff

2007
01:08:48,950 --> 01:08:46,560
of course it's crazy of course it's

2008
01:08:50,470 --> 01:08:48,960
ridiculous you know i have the epigram

2009
01:08:53,030 --> 01:08:50,480
to to my book

2010
01:08:54,789 --> 01:08:53,040
sir william crooks who said um i never

2011
01:08:55,829 --> 01:08:54,799
said it was possible i only said it was

2012
01:08:59,189 --> 01:08:55,839
true

2013
01:09:01,349 --> 01:08:59,199
um so uh that's my big beef with the

2014
01:09:01,910 --> 01:09:01,359
with the skeptics so-called skeptics and

2015
01:09:04,149 --> 01:09:01,920
uh

2016
01:09:05,269 --> 01:09:04,159
because i spent 16 years looking into

2017
01:09:06,950 --> 01:09:05,279
this uh

2018
01:09:08,390 --> 01:09:06,960
and looking to every other explanation

2019
01:09:09,910 --> 01:09:08,400
and if there was one i would have you

2020
01:09:11,829 --> 01:09:09,920
know i'd be happy to say it

2021
01:09:14,229 --> 01:09:11,839
that here's the answer john mack was

2022
01:09:17,829 --> 01:09:14,239
completely wrong here is the answer

2023
01:09:20,870 --> 01:09:17,839
which i alone have found okay

2024
01:09:23,910 --> 01:09:20,880
well you know i i'd add to that that

2025
01:09:25,669 --> 01:09:23,920
rather than go look through all the

2026
01:09:27,829 --> 01:09:25,679
scientific studies and all the rest of

2027
01:09:29,990 --> 01:09:27,839
it go look at this book

2028
01:09:31,430 --> 01:09:30,000
again uh our guest has been ralph

2029
01:09:34,470 --> 01:09:31,440
blumenthal in the book

2030
01:09:35,430 --> 01:09:34,480
the believer alien encounters hard

2031
01:09:38,070 --> 01:09:35,440
science

2032
01:09:40,390 --> 01:09:38,080
and the passion of john mack and i i

2033
01:09:42,390 --> 01:09:40,400
just want to add to this because i think

2034
01:09:43,430 --> 01:09:42,400
i just really believe this is true is

2035
01:09:46,229 --> 01:09:43,440
that this book

2036
01:09:47,669 --> 01:09:46,239
is so personal that it brings you

2037
01:09:52,550 --> 01:09:47,679
through

2038
01:09:54,950 --> 01:09:52,560
said looking over the shoulder

2039
01:09:57,189 --> 01:09:54,960
of a guy who lives through this and is a

2040
01:10:00,070 --> 01:09:57,199
guy that you're really going to be

2041
01:10:01,430 --> 01:10:00,080
interested and exciting excited about

2042
01:10:03,110 --> 01:10:01,440
meeting if you don't know

2043
01:10:04,470 --> 01:10:03,120
all the details about john mack and no

2044
01:10:07,270 --> 01:10:04,480
one could have known

2045
01:10:08,709 --> 01:10:07,280
all these things so it's it's just a

2046
01:10:09,590 --> 01:10:08,719
really really great book and a great

2047
01:10:11,270 --> 01:10:09,600
accomplishment

2048
01:10:12,870 --> 01:10:11,280
ralph what else do we need to tell

2049
01:10:15,590 --> 01:10:12,880
people about

2050
01:10:18,390 --> 01:10:15,600
what you've done here or about anything

2051
01:10:21,270 --> 01:10:18,400
else that you're working on

2052
01:10:22,550 --> 01:10:21,280
well i mean i'm still in touch with uh

2053
01:10:25,750 --> 01:10:22,560
leslie kane

2054
01:10:27,990 --> 01:10:25,760
my colleague who wrote the series

2055
01:10:29,990 --> 01:10:28,000
along with helene cooper in the times

2056
01:10:33,510 --> 01:10:30,000
that brought this whole phenomenon

2057
01:10:35,750 --> 01:10:33,520
um i'm not saying to light but that

2058
01:10:37,590 --> 01:10:35,760
that that that broke the story of the

2059
01:10:39,750 --> 01:10:37,600
secret pentagon unit

2060
01:10:41,270 --> 01:10:39,760
uh investigating ufos because officially

2061
01:10:44,229 --> 01:10:41,280
the government was out of the ufo

2062
01:10:46,310 --> 01:10:44,239
business with project blue book in 1970

2063
01:10:48,149 --> 01:10:46,320
unofficially it was continuing to

2064
01:10:49,990 --> 01:10:48,159
investigate as we know

2065
01:10:51,750 --> 01:10:50,000
and there was this you know secret unit

2066
01:10:53,830 --> 01:10:51,760
operating uh with uh

2067
01:10:54,870 --> 01:10:53,840
funding from you know senator harry

2068
01:10:59,110 --> 01:10:54,880
reid's office

2069
01:11:00,149 --> 01:10:59,120
uh in 2007 to today the name has changed

2070
01:11:02,950 --> 01:11:00,159
it's now the

2071
01:11:04,709 --> 01:11:02,960
uap unidentified aerial phenomenon task

2072
01:11:06,950 --> 01:11:04,719
force but it's the same

2073
01:11:08,390 --> 01:11:06,960
as when we wrote about it was called

2074
01:11:10,830 --> 01:11:08,400
atep the

2075
01:11:12,149 --> 01:11:10,840
advanced aerospace threat identification

2076
01:11:13,830 --> 01:11:12,159
program

2077
01:11:15,270 --> 01:11:13,840
so we're continuing to you know to

2078
01:11:16,630 --> 01:11:15,280
monitor things there's supposed to be a

2079
01:11:20,870 --> 01:11:16,640
report coming out

2080
01:11:23,830 --> 01:11:20,880
uh fairly soon later this year

2081
01:11:26,229 --> 01:11:23,840
you know i was hesitant i was hesitant

2082
01:11:29,910 --> 01:11:26,239
even going there but you brought it up

2083
01:11:33,030 --> 01:11:29,920
december 18th 2017

2084
01:11:35,510 --> 01:11:33,040
the day that will live in infamy

2085
01:11:36,630 --> 01:11:35,520
you guys broke that story in the new

2086
01:11:38,709 --> 01:11:36,640
york times

2087
01:11:40,870 --> 01:11:38,719
but this is the one i've gone back and

2088
01:11:44,310 --> 01:11:40,880
forth with leslie kane on

2089
01:11:45,270 --> 01:11:44,320
i mean to me political psyop from the

2090
01:11:47,590 --> 01:11:45,280
beginning

2091
01:11:48,709 --> 01:11:47,600
that's how it plays that's how it plays

2092
01:11:50,870 --> 01:11:48,719
out over time

2093
01:11:52,950 --> 01:11:50,880
does it mean that it's real does it mean

2094
01:11:54,870 --> 01:11:52,960
that you guys didn't report on it in the

2095
01:11:57,669 --> 01:11:54,880
best possible way that you could

2096
01:11:59,750 --> 01:11:57,679
but this thing has such a political feel

2097
01:12:02,870 --> 01:11:59,760
to it it's one side

2098
01:12:03,669 --> 01:12:02,880
of the political spectrum talking as if

2099
01:12:06,310 --> 01:12:03,679
there isn't

2100
01:12:07,669 --> 01:12:06,320
another side you know at that time

2101
01:12:08,630 --> 01:12:07,679
donald trump was the president of the

2102
01:12:11,910 --> 01:12:08,640
united states

2103
01:12:14,229 --> 01:12:11,920
he is nowhere to be found in that story

2104
01:12:15,910 --> 01:12:14,239
and and there is no anyone in the

2105
01:12:18,149 --> 01:12:15,920
administration's nowhere to be found

2106
01:12:19,430 --> 01:12:18,159
i think that's very curious i don't know

2107
01:12:21,910 --> 01:12:19,440
what you want to make of that

2108
01:12:23,750 --> 01:12:21,920
but then the way they've spun that i

2109
01:12:26,229 --> 01:12:23,760
mean the whole thing of uh

2110
01:12:29,270 --> 01:12:26,239
of lou elizonda coming out and saying

2111
01:12:32,870 --> 01:12:29,280
well it wasn't really classified

2112
01:12:35,590 --> 01:12:32,880
well if this isn't freaking classified

2113
01:12:37,350 --> 01:12:35,600
well why do we have a system of

2114
01:12:39,510 --> 01:12:37,360
classified and top secret

2115
01:12:41,510 --> 01:12:39,520
so again it just has this been and these

2116
01:12:42,070 --> 01:12:41,520
guys have lied about this for 60

2117
01:12:43,510 --> 01:12:42,080
years

2118
01:12:44,630 --> 01:12:43,520
and now they're gonna roll it out and

2119
01:12:45,990 --> 01:12:44,640
they're gonna roll it out in the new

2120
01:12:49,189 --> 01:12:46,000
york times which has been

2121
01:12:50,630 --> 01:12:49,199
especially hostile to this whole topic

2122
01:12:52,630 --> 01:12:50,640
and then the way that it's played out on

2123
01:12:53,590 --> 01:12:52,640
the history channel with lou elizando

2124
01:12:55,750 --> 01:12:53,600
and the rest of those guys

2125
01:12:57,030 --> 01:12:55,760
it's all pentagon pentagon pentagon this

2126
01:12:58,950 --> 01:12:57,040
is the the great

2127
01:13:00,630 --> 01:12:58,960
threat this is the new world order

2128
01:13:02,390 --> 01:13:00,640
threat you know we all have to

2129
01:13:04,070 --> 01:13:02,400
join together as a family you know

2130
01:13:05,270 --> 01:13:04,080
werner von braun you know this is the

2131
01:13:05,910 --> 01:13:05,280
last thing they're going to use kind of

2132
01:13:07,910 --> 01:13:05,920
thing

2133
01:13:09,590 --> 01:13:07,920
i'm not saying that is true i'm just

2134
01:13:12,630 --> 01:13:09,600
saying you cannot

2135
01:13:15,750 --> 01:13:12,640
go there go to this topic and not

2136
01:13:18,310 --> 01:13:15,760
start pulling apart what the agenda is

2137
01:13:20,070 --> 01:13:18,320
here because it doesn't look like it's

2138
01:13:22,310 --> 01:13:20,080
what's being presented on the surface to

2139
01:13:24,550 --> 01:13:22,320
me what are your thoughts on all that

2140
01:13:25,990 --> 01:13:24,560
oh that's uh you're handing me a lot to

2141
01:13:29,189 --> 01:13:26,000
deal with there alex

2142
01:13:30,229 --> 01:13:29,199
but let me say first of all that i know

2143
01:13:33,270 --> 01:13:30,239
the way the story

2144
01:13:35,510 --> 01:13:33,280
emerged and it was not fed to us uh

2145
01:13:38,229 --> 01:13:35,520
leslie through her good candidates

2146
01:13:38,870 --> 01:13:38,239
i get it you know so she went down to

2147
01:13:40,630 --> 01:13:38,880
washington

2148
01:13:43,110 --> 01:13:40,640
she heard about she said it on the

2149
01:13:45,030 --> 01:13:43,120
meeting when lou elizondo disclosed that

2150
01:13:46,390 --> 01:13:45,040
he was quitting we had the letter you

2151
01:13:48,390 --> 01:13:46,400
know where he was quitting and

2152
01:13:49,990 --> 01:13:48,400
they were afraid to show it to mattis at

2153
01:13:52,630 --> 01:13:50,000
the time uh i mean

2154
01:13:53,030 --> 01:13:52,640
you know a lot of weird stuff there um

2155
01:13:56,229 --> 01:13:53,040
but

2156
01:13:57,830 --> 01:13:56,239
um so i mean the first thing is that we

2157
01:13:59,750 --> 01:13:57,840
dug that story out it wasn't

2158
01:14:01,430 --> 01:13:59,760
that because we got no sense this is a

2159
01:14:03,030 --> 01:14:01,440
story the government wanted us to write

2160
01:14:05,510 --> 01:14:03,040
for any reason of its own

2161
01:14:06,709 --> 01:14:05,520
uh we pulled it out uh she had good

2162
01:14:09,830 --> 01:14:06,719
connections

2163
01:14:12,630 --> 01:14:09,840
and um uh they didn't hand feed us

2164
01:14:14,070 --> 01:14:12,640
these uh uh videos that came out the

2165
01:14:16,790 --> 01:14:14,080
three navy videos

2166
01:14:18,550 --> 01:14:16,800
i think what i think what happened so

2167
01:14:19,030 --> 01:14:18,560
i'm totally with you on all that i would

2168
01:14:21,590 --> 01:14:19,040
not

2169
01:14:23,669 --> 01:14:21,600
question that in the least but the video

2170
01:14:25,270 --> 01:14:23,679
like the first video is like what 8 10

2171
01:14:27,110 --> 01:14:25,280
12 years old

2172
01:14:28,870 --> 01:14:27,120
it's not like a new video yeah it was

2173
01:14:29,590 --> 01:14:28,880
even it was even on it was even on the

2174
01:14:31,990 --> 01:14:29,600
youtube i

2175
01:14:33,189 --> 01:14:32,000
i interviewed you know uh kevin day who

2176
01:14:35,830 --> 01:14:33,199
was on the boat

2177
01:14:36,470 --> 01:14:35,840
and the video he saw it and then he had

2178
01:14:39,030 --> 01:14:36,480
the video

2179
01:14:40,630 --> 01:14:39,040
in his inbox you know he was the he was

2180
01:14:43,830 --> 01:14:40,640
the top gun navy

2181
01:14:45,590 --> 01:14:43,840
kind of right see and the video was in

2182
01:14:46,870 --> 01:14:45,600
his thing the next day and he said yeah

2183
01:14:48,229 --> 01:14:46,880
it was on the internet you know then

2184
01:14:50,870 --> 01:14:48,239
they took it down kind of thing

2185
01:14:51,270 --> 01:14:50,880
so yeah i was floating around i mean and

2186
01:14:54,950 --> 01:14:51,280
that

2187
01:14:56,790 --> 01:14:54,960
we didn't have them all but the pentagon

2188
01:14:59,350 --> 01:14:56,800
later authenticated the videos

2189
01:15:01,030 --> 01:14:59,360
um and they were absolutely real and

2190
01:15:02,630 --> 01:15:01,040
people did try to pick them apart and

2191
01:15:03,189 --> 01:15:02,640
say oh if you look at it from this angle

2192
01:15:04,550 --> 01:15:03,199
and this is

2193
01:15:06,470 --> 01:15:04,560
it's not fabricated these are real

2194
01:15:08,310 --> 01:15:06,480
objects that were caught on

2195
01:15:09,910 --> 01:15:08,320
and and then we interviewed pilots

2196
01:15:10,470 --> 01:15:09,920
themselves that's another thing we did

2197
01:15:16,390 --> 01:15:10,480
that

2198
01:15:17,270 --> 01:15:16,400
we found these people dave fravor and

2199
01:15:20,550 --> 01:15:17,280
and ryan

2200
01:15:22,709 --> 01:15:20,560
um forgot his last name and daniel coyne

2201
01:15:23,750 --> 01:15:22,719
pilots who told us that they eyeballed

2202
01:15:25,510 --> 01:15:23,760
these things

2203
01:15:27,990 --> 01:15:25,520
and dave fravis said he watched this

2204
01:15:30,070 --> 01:15:28,000
thing as it was underwater you know

2205
01:15:31,350 --> 01:15:30,080
and this is a highly decorated you know

2206
01:15:33,430 --> 01:15:31,360
navy jet

2207
01:15:34,870 --> 01:15:33,440
fighter pilot who's saying these things

2208
01:15:36,149 --> 01:15:34,880
so they i don't think they they had a

2209
01:15:38,550 --> 01:15:36,159
script written for them that they were

2210
01:15:39,430 --> 01:15:38,560
supposed to tell us this stuff so but i

2211
01:15:43,270 --> 01:15:39,440
do think

2212
01:15:44,870 --> 01:15:43,280
that the stories we wrote

2213
01:15:47,189 --> 01:15:44,880
convinced the government to come out

2214
01:15:48,070 --> 01:15:47,199
more and maybe they realize it's not

2215
01:15:50,709 --> 01:15:48,080
something that they can

2216
01:15:52,550 --> 01:15:50,719
contain anymore that people are

2217
01:15:55,830 --> 01:15:52,560
demanding answers so it's

2218
01:15:58,149 --> 01:15:55,840
it's pushed the process um and

2219
01:15:59,510 --> 01:15:58,159
um you know there are people in the

2220
01:16:01,669 --> 01:15:59,520
government who want to see

2221
01:16:02,550 --> 01:16:01,679
uh much more come out uh you know we

2222
01:16:05,270 --> 01:16:02,560
know that

2223
01:16:05,990 --> 01:16:05,280
uh but there's also a lot of secrecy

2224
01:16:09,110 --> 01:16:06,000
still involved

2225
01:16:10,870 --> 01:16:09,120
a lot of stuff is classified that may

2226
01:16:13,830 --> 01:16:10,880
not need to be

2227
01:16:15,510 --> 01:16:13,840
va tips as you point out wasn't for some

2228
01:16:18,550 --> 01:16:15,520
reason

2229
01:16:19,430 --> 01:16:18,560
it's strange that the navy videos were

2230
01:16:20,550 --> 01:16:19,440
not classified

2231
01:16:22,229 --> 01:16:20,560
because if they were we wouldn't have

2232
01:16:24,070 --> 01:16:22,239
put them out we couldn't we don't want

2233
01:16:24,390 --> 01:16:24,080
to go to jail and we wouldn't be dealing

2234
01:16:27,189 --> 01:16:24,400
with

2235
01:16:28,149 --> 01:16:27,199
stolen you know a leaked classified

2236
01:16:29,669 --> 01:16:28,159
material that's

2237
01:16:31,189 --> 01:16:29,679
not that we've never been accused of

2238
01:16:34,870 --> 01:16:31,199
that

2239
01:16:36,470 --> 01:16:34,880
super interesting during my interview

2240
01:16:38,310 --> 01:16:36,480
with kevin day

2241
01:16:39,669 --> 01:16:38,320
and it relates back to your book and it

2242
01:16:39,990 --> 01:16:39,679
relates back to what we're just talking

2243
01:16:43,910 --> 01:16:40,000
about

2244
01:16:46,550 --> 01:16:43,920
and john mack is so kevin day

2245
01:16:47,510 --> 01:16:46,560
again he's the guy who from aboard the

2246
01:16:49,189 --> 01:16:47,520
ship is

2247
01:16:51,270 --> 01:16:49,199
orchestrating all the communication so

2248
01:16:53,910 --> 01:16:51,280
he's telling where the pilot the pilots

2249
01:16:55,750 --> 01:16:53,920
where to go and all the rest of this two

2250
01:16:56,790 --> 01:16:55,760
interesting things come up from his

2251
01:17:00,229 --> 01:16:56,800
story

2252
01:17:03,750 --> 01:17:00,239
one is that he says

2253
01:17:05,910 --> 01:17:03,760
these objects like 20 30 whatever

2254
01:17:06,870 --> 01:17:05,920
were in the air had been trailing the

2255
01:17:10,310 --> 01:17:06,880
ship for

2256
01:17:12,709 --> 01:17:10,320
like seven days and i said kevin uh

2257
01:17:14,790 --> 01:17:12,719
do you find it strange that you didn't

2258
01:17:18,390 --> 01:17:14,800
report that to your co

2259
01:17:20,950 --> 01:17:18,400
before that and he paused and goes

2260
01:17:21,910 --> 01:17:20,960
yeah that is kind of weird again mental

2261
01:17:25,350 --> 01:17:21,920
aspect to this

2262
01:17:27,590 --> 01:17:25,360
but the real clincher is he said finally

2263
01:17:28,390 --> 01:17:27,600
on the day of the event i decided to go

2264
01:17:31,110 --> 01:17:28,400
up top side

2265
01:17:32,790 --> 01:17:31,120
and i looked through the the glass and i

2266
01:17:35,830 --> 01:17:32,800
looked at it

2267
01:17:37,910 --> 01:17:35,840
and it changed something in me and he

2268
01:17:40,470 --> 01:17:37,920
says he experiences what they call

2269
01:17:41,750 --> 01:17:40,480
valet davis effect from jacques valle

2270
01:17:44,950 --> 01:17:41,760
and davis i don't know who

2271
01:17:47,510 --> 01:17:44,960
davis was but the of this

2272
01:17:49,350 --> 01:17:47,520
kind of transcendent experience similar

2273
01:17:51,910 --> 01:17:49,360
to what you're talking about

2274
01:17:53,750 --> 01:17:51,920
in the john mack stuff is that there's

2275
01:17:56,149 --> 01:17:53,760
some kind of extended realm

2276
01:17:57,590 --> 01:17:56,159
in which he feels like he has some

2277
01:17:59,110 --> 01:17:57,600
experience for him it's kind of

2278
01:18:00,950 --> 01:17:59,120
traumatic he has

2279
01:18:02,709 --> 01:18:00,960
post-traumatic stress disorder but it's

2280
01:18:03,430 --> 01:18:02,719
not really post-traumatic stress

2281
01:18:06,390 --> 01:18:03,440
disorder

2282
01:18:08,630 --> 01:18:06,400
it is kind of textbook valet davis

2283
01:18:10,709 --> 01:18:08,640
effects so

2284
01:18:12,870 --> 01:18:10,719
i just think it's interesting when we

2285
01:18:15,270 --> 01:18:12,880
start talking about videos

2286
01:18:17,030 --> 01:18:15,280
and we start talking about encounters

2287
01:18:20,310 --> 01:18:17,040
with the craft

2288
01:18:22,790 --> 01:18:20,320
again it's this kind of

2289
01:18:23,830 --> 01:18:22,800
huge soup of we don't know how we're

2290
01:18:25,669 --> 01:18:23,840
being

2291
01:18:27,590 --> 01:18:25,679
how we're interacting it's it's really

2292
01:18:28,149 --> 01:18:27,600
no different than the abduction thing is

2293
01:18:36,310 --> 01:18:28,159
it

2294
01:18:38,070 --> 01:18:36,320
we have to acknowledge that that

2295
01:18:39,750 --> 01:18:38,080
you know and what gets me again are the

2296
01:18:41,350 --> 01:18:39,760
people who come phone say oh it's no

2297
01:18:43,830 --> 01:18:41,360
mystery i know what this is this

2298
01:18:44,470 --> 01:18:43,840
is you know and then they spin some

2299
01:18:47,910 --> 01:18:44,480
theory this

2300
01:18:51,030 --> 01:18:47,920
is uh anthropological the you know uh

2301
01:18:53,270 --> 01:18:51,040
this is uh the same you know mythical

2302
01:18:55,189 --> 01:18:53,280
stuff that you know people with the

2303
01:18:56,470 --> 01:18:55,199
aboriginal societies have been dealing

2304
01:18:58,709 --> 01:18:56,480
with it's myth

2305
01:19:00,550 --> 01:18:58,719
you know they have the answer but as i

2306
01:19:01,750 --> 01:19:00,560
say you got to read all the material

2307
01:19:04,870 --> 01:19:01,760
before

2308
01:19:06,390 --> 01:19:04,880
you know you offer the answer so i guess

2309
01:19:07,030 --> 01:19:06,400
we're back at the starting point but

2310
01:19:10,790 --> 01:19:07,040
it's been

2311
01:19:14,310 --> 01:19:10,800
been an

2312
01:19:14,790 --> 01:19:14,320
awesome journey and again required

2313
01:19:19,750 --> 01:19:14,800
reading

2314
01:19:21,990 --> 01:19:19,760
absolutely terrific having you on ralph

2315
01:19:23,910 --> 01:19:22,000
best of luck with this book i know it's

2316
01:19:24,630 --> 01:19:23,920
already been super successful and i know

2317
01:19:28,709 --> 01:19:24,640
you'll

2318
01:19:29,750 --> 01:19:28,719
it what's next for you after this i

2319
01:19:32,630 --> 01:19:29,760
you just said that you're going to

2320
01:19:33,830 --> 01:19:32,640
continue pursuing this field any books

2321
01:19:34,709 --> 01:19:33,840
that you're working on that you'd like

2322
01:19:36,709 --> 01:19:34,719
to talk about

2323
01:19:37,830 --> 01:19:36,719
or i know you authors sometimes like to

2324
01:19:40,709 --> 01:19:37,840
keep those

2325
01:19:42,790 --> 01:19:40,719
close to the vest well i don't want to

2326
01:19:45,189 --> 01:19:42,800
talk about what's next to mine but

2327
01:19:46,470 --> 01:19:45,199
um there's more to be done on this

2328
01:19:49,270 --> 01:19:46,480
subject for sure

2329
01:19:50,070 --> 01:19:49,280
and considering that i spent seven 16

2330
01:19:53,110 --> 01:19:50,080
years

2331
01:19:54,709 --> 01:19:53,120
17 until it came out on this i'm not so

2332
01:19:57,189 --> 01:19:54,719
eager to plunge into

2333
01:19:57,990 --> 01:19:57,199
another subject from scratch but there's

2334
01:19:59,669 --> 01:19:58,000
so much

2335
01:20:01,270 --> 01:19:59,679
to this story and the people i've

2336
01:20:03,110 --> 01:20:01,280
continued to meet you know

2337
01:20:04,310 --> 01:20:03,120
i keep getting more information now that

2338
01:20:06,550 --> 01:20:04,320
the book is out and

2339
01:20:08,390 --> 01:20:06,560
i heard the other day from a colleague

2340
01:20:10,070 --> 01:20:08,400
of john max

2341
01:20:11,669 --> 01:20:10,080
who said and i wish i'd had this for the

2342
01:20:14,310 --> 01:20:11,679
book she said uh

2343
01:20:16,070 --> 01:20:14,320
you know i was the last one or one of

2344
01:20:18,070 --> 01:20:16,080
the last people he saw before he left

2345
01:20:21,110 --> 01:20:18,080
for england where he was killed

2346
01:20:22,229 --> 01:20:21,120
and uh i asked him you know john where

2347
01:20:24,390 --> 01:20:22,239
are you going

2348
01:20:25,510 --> 01:20:24,400
you know what are you doing and he went

2349
01:20:28,629 --> 01:20:25,520
like this

2350
01:20:30,790 --> 01:20:28,639
he pointed to the ground she said

2351
01:20:32,390 --> 01:20:30,800
and she didn't realize what that meant

2352
01:20:34,950 --> 01:20:32,400
until afterwards and she found that he

2353
01:20:35,910 --> 01:20:34,960
killed it so i wish i'd had that story

2354
01:20:38,950 --> 01:20:35,920
at the time

2355
01:20:39,830 --> 01:20:38,960
so i keep hearing from people you know

2356
01:20:42,550 --> 01:20:39,840
that the subject

2357
01:20:43,510 --> 01:20:42,560
is certainly endlessly fascinating uh

2358
01:20:48,470 --> 01:20:43,520
there's more

2359
01:20:51,270 --> 01:20:48,480
you know coming out obviously on ufos

2360
01:20:52,790 --> 01:20:51,280
um there's a lot more to be people ask

2361
01:20:54,550 --> 01:20:52,800
me all the time well who's continuing

2362
01:20:56,790 --> 01:20:54,560
this research now i mean who

2363
01:20:58,229 --> 01:20:56,800
who's who's john mack today say i don't

2364
01:21:00,229 --> 01:20:58,239
know um

2365
01:21:02,229 --> 01:21:00,239
there are groups of experiences who are

2366
01:21:05,350 --> 01:21:02,239
meeting you know

2367
01:21:08,310 --> 01:21:05,360
um but um

2368
01:21:09,590 --> 01:21:08,320
considering the wealth of scientific

2369
01:21:12,790 --> 01:21:09,600
knowledge

2370
01:21:14,470 --> 01:21:12,800
uh available today and i end my book

2371
01:21:15,910 --> 01:21:14,480
with the story of the hadron

2372
01:21:18,229 --> 01:21:15,920
supercollider

2373
01:21:20,149 --> 01:21:18,239
and the image of the black hole 58

2374
01:21:22,629 --> 01:21:20,159
million light years away that

2375
01:21:23,350 --> 01:21:22,639
you know the scientists caught a picture

2376
01:21:25,990 --> 01:21:23,360
of

2377
01:21:27,510 --> 01:21:26,000
58 million light years away and they

2378
01:21:28,790 --> 01:21:27,520
can't figure out if people are being

2379
01:21:31,430 --> 01:21:28,800
abducted

2380
01:21:33,030 --> 01:21:31,440
because the science is not you know the

2381
01:21:34,470 --> 01:21:33,040
government is not giving money for that

2382
01:21:37,270 --> 01:21:34,480
they're only giving money for

2383
01:21:38,229 --> 01:21:37,280
you know seti and you know telescopes

2384
01:21:40,070 --> 01:21:38,239
come on

2385
01:21:42,310 --> 01:21:40,080
uh there are serious questions here

2386
01:21:44,149 --> 01:21:42,320
there's brain research as to what

2387
01:21:45,510 --> 01:21:44,159
what parts of the brain are activated

2388
01:21:48,310 --> 01:21:45,520
when people go through

2389
01:21:49,590 --> 01:21:48,320
abduction experiences so you know

2390
01:21:52,950 --> 01:21:49,600
there's a lot to be

2391
01:21:54,470 --> 01:21:52,960
uh you know researched still clearly

2392
01:21:56,310 --> 01:21:54,480
it's only at the beginning but it's

2393
01:21:58,390 --> 01:21:56,320
disreputable still

2394
01:22:00,229 --> 01:21:58,400
so we've got to get beyond that ridicule

2395
01:22:02,950 --> 01:22:00,239
factor and try to figure out what the

2396
01:22:04,790 --> 01:22:02,960
hell's going on

2397
01:22:06,950 --> 01:22:04,800
ralph it's been absolutely terrific

2398
01:22:08,229 --> 01:22:06,960
thank you so much for joining me

2399
01:22:10,390 --> 01:22:08,239
alex has been great to be on your

2400
01:22:11,910 --> 01:22:10,400
program thank you

2401
01:22:13,590 --> 01:22:11,920
thanks again to ralph blumenthal for

2402
01:22:16,390 --> 01:22:13,600
joining me today on skeptico

2403
01:22:17,350 --> 01:22:16,400
the one question i'd tee up from this

2404
01:22:19,030 --> 01:22:17,360
interview

2405
01:22:20,709 --> 01:22:19,040
and it really really is a fundamental

2406
01:22:21,669 --> 01:22:20,719
question i keep bumping into in a bunch

2407
01:22:25,030 --> 01:22:21,679
of different ways

2408
01:22:27,030 --> 01:22:25,040
is what do you make of our reality it is

2409
01:22:30,310 --> 01:22:27,040
in many ways the only game in town

2410
01:22:32,149 --> 01:22:30,320
in terms of a rational scientific

2411
01:22:34,709 --> 01:22:32,159
logical approach

2412
01:22:36,149 --> 01:22:34,719
but what do we do with the fact that it

2413
01:22:39,669 --> 01:22:36,159
may be a severely

2414
01:22:43,189 --> 01:22:39,679
limited perspective from which we

2415
01:22:44,709 --> 01:22:43,199
launch into all that logic and rational

2416
01:22:46,550 --> 01:22:44,719
thinking

2417
01:22:49,189 --> 01:22:46,560
what do you think let me know track me

2418
01:22:50,070 --> 01:22:49,199
down plenty more to come stay with me

2419
01:22:54,920 --> 01:22:50,080
for all of that

2420
01:23:04,830 --> 01:22:54,930
until next time take care and bye for